Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Christian · 03-14-2003, 01:08 AM

Carrie,

Onesimus was a runaway slave, probably having stolen some money � vs. 18. Like countless thousands of other runaway slaves, Onesimus fled to Rome. In Rome a runaway slave could lose himself in the capital�s teeming and nondescript slave population. While in Rome Onesimus met Paul and became a Christian.

Keep in mind that Onesimus was not living as a slave with Paul, but as a son. Adoption was one of the ways that a slave could become free, and the only real route open to Paul (a Roman citizen) for freeing him � verse 10 is telling Philemon that he (Paul) had freed Onesimus by adopting him (probably literally, but perhaps not. In any case the significance of calling a slave a �son� would not have been lost on anyone in that culture.)

Philemon will follow Paul�s advice as if it came strait from God, and Paul knows this. Verse 22 is virtually a threat. Paul stopped only just short of an outright command.

Onesimus [a common slave name meaning �useful� � see the word play in vs. 11) was not living as a slave with Paul, and it�s incredibly unlikely that Philemon did not free him. Especially given that this letter was preserved by the church as scripture � the church in Colosse sure didn�t just tear it up.

There are numerous scriptural arguments against slavery, and they were used by Christians to shape the public tide that resulted in the abolition of slavery. The golden rule (one of only 2 foundational precepts that the entire Old Testament hangs on) is near the top of the list.

Respectfully,

Christian

Javaman · 03-14-2003, 03:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Christian

[snip]...
In case you doubt that, here is some scriptural support.

...[snip]
Respectfully,

Christian

Yeah, that usually works on folks here

Seriously, though, did you not notice the uncanny similarity between most of those quotes? And only this one:

1CO 9:1 Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord?

Could really be used as part of your defence (and is very much open for discussion as to how he "saw" him... if he did).

Kosh · 03-14-2003, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Christian

Paul was equal in authority to any of the 12. He was selected personally by Jesus to be an apostle �

Can you show us where in the Bible Jesus did this?

Quote:

a distinction shared only by the 12. The first century church viewed Paul on the same level as the 12. He was very much one of the original apostles. In fact he was THE original apostle to the gentiles, which is a whole bunch of people. Most churches in the first century would have likely listened to him OVER the 12.

He was sent to the gentiles after Peter et al told him to "get out of Dodge" (ie, Jeruselem).

Quote:

In case you doubt that, here is some scriptural support.

Why are all of these things that Paul said himself? As I said before, he was a self appointed Apostle.

Quote:

1CO 9:1 Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord?

2CO 12:11 I have made a fool of myself, but you drove me to it. I ought to have been commended by you, for I am not in the least inferior to the "super-apostles," even though I am nothing. 12 The things that mark an apostle--signs, wonders and miracles--were done among you with great perseverance. 13 How were you inferior to the other churches, except that I was never a burden to you? Forgive me this wrong!

1 TIM 2:7 And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle--I am telling the truth, I am not lying--and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.

2 TIM 1:11 And of this gospel I was appointed a herald and an apostle and a teacher.

In these quotes, do you notice the defensiveness of his writings? People were questioning his authenticity, since his only claim to meeting Jesus was a "vision" (one told with contradictory versions in the NT) on the road to Damascus.... three years after Jesus was allegedly crucified.

Pls. do some homework Christian!

Paul hijacked Xianity, and remolded it to sell it to the Gentiles. What you practice is Paulianity, not Christianity.

Carrie · 03-14-2003, 01:07 PM

Hey Christian,

Oh I don't think Paul was keeping Onesimus as a slave, but as a friend and partner in the gospel. And I believe that Philemon probably did free Onesimus. And yeah, good scriptures to use against slavery are in the Bible, such as the "do unto others as you would have done to you."

Now, I have heard some Christians say that the reason Jesus and his apostles did not preach against slavery was because it would have been really controversial and would have detracted from their primary message.

Now, I don't think preaching against slavery would have worked if that was their primary message and purpose, but if they had at least said that slavery is wrong and it should be abolished, people would have listened. People listened to Jesus and Paul as the voice of God, so if Jesus or Paul had preached against slavery, his followers would have taken heed. As Christianity spread, this message would also spread, as part of the gospel. Part of the freedom from bondage message. Literal bondage, and the figurative bondage of sin. A lot of people became Christians, so perhaps if Jesus had preached against slavery, we would have seen great masses of slaves being released by their Christian masters, and the anti-slavery movement would have begun much sooner.

Slavery should never existed in Israel in the first place. The fact that God, via Moses, said that they could have slaves, and beat their slaves to within an inch of their lives, is what ruins any defense. It wasn't the Israelites alone who were at fault. It was God who was to blame. He was the one who said slavery was okay in the first place.

JEST2ASK · 03-14-2003, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Christian
JEST2ASK / Kosh,

I stand corrected. Only the Hebrew slaves were set free during the year of Jubilee. I must learn not to work from memory when posting on this forum.

Respectfully,

Christian

Sorry I missed seeing this last night .... and responded to your earlier post ..... I hope you don't feel that I am an overly opinated jerk with poor reading comprhension skills and given to frequent ill thought outbursts (

I am but I just don't want you or others feel or think that way) ... My apologies ...

The greater issue however is that most believers hold so tightly onto the good impression / conclusions that they do not examine the actual evidence ....

The biblical Jews by the very nature of their culture / religion ( I don't think you can separate them) were a people apart and (IMO) acted under the same sense of "manifest destiny" exhibited by the Europeans in this country in dealing with the indigenious people. You and many others fail to admit that the bible is a man made document and that what it contains are in many cases justifications of actions. (Much like a lot of the gloss over in US history books).

Personally I think that a great deal of what the bible can teach us is never explored because of the mindset that it is "Holy".

I definately do not want to offend one of the nicer Christians posters ...

JEST2ASK · 03-14-2003, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kosh
.............

Why are all of these things that Paul said himself? As I said before, he was a self appointed Apostle.

In these quotes, do you notice the defensiveness of his writings? People were questioning his authenticity, since his only claim to meeting Jesus was a "vision" (one told with contradictory versions in the NT) on the road to Damascus.... three years after Jesus was allegedly crucified.

Paul hijacked Xianity, and remolded it to sell it to the Gentiles. What you practice is Paulianity, not Christianity.

Overlooked is the fact that Peter and other Jews also converted Gentiles .... in fact Acts Chapter 10 details Peter being "sent" to the Gentiles. I find it very interesting the writer of Acts starts with telling of Jesus and the Disciples and ends concentrating almost solely on Paul. There are lots of questions about the development of the early church we will never know because "the victors write the history". (Yeah a whole nother Thread someday I have to pursue this).

Christian · 03-16-2003, 07:07 PM

Jest,

Havn't been avoiding you ... it's just been a busy weekend in the real world. I have pretty thick skin or I wouldn't be here, but thanks for the apology. Accepted.

Javaman,

Quote:

Seriously, though, did you not notice the uncanny similarity between most of those quotes? And only this one:

1CO 9:1 Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord?

Could really be used as part of your defence (and is very much open for discussion as to how he "saw" him... if he did).

Why do you say that? Because it mentions Paul seeing Jesus? There were two other verses that explicitly state Jesus personally appointed Paul as an apostle:

GAL 1:1 Paul, an apostle--sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead-- 2 and all the brothers with me,

1TI 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus our hope,

Surely you saw those, though. What exactly is it about 1 CO 9:1 that qualifies it as the sole scriptural support for my argument in your eyes?

Respectfully,

Christian

Christian · 03-16-2003, 07:19 PM

Justin70,

Quote:

"If Jesus was God, why didn't he actually write this stuff down in a really clear manner, tell his disciples to hold onto the writings until after he was gone, then spread the news?"

You would think that a omniscient and omnipotent being could think of a really good way to preserve the information throughout the ages. Do those wrappers that comics come in last that long?

Last I checked, the church was not in any danger of dying out any time soon. Depsite widespread persecution in the world. Millions of people would give their lives today for their belief in what the Bible says, despite it's continued attack by skeptics.

God is after our hearts. And hearts cannot be won by reading really clear theology text books. He doesn't want us to merely know truth, He wants up to encounter Truth Himself.

One of my favorite quotes regarding how Jesus went about it (in contrast to the method you suggest) is by Napoleon, who was a great military leader but more than likely was not a Christian.

"I know men and I tell you that Jesus Christ is no mere man. Between Him and every other person in the world there is no possible term of comparison. Alexander, Caesar, Charlemagne, and I have founded empires. But on what did we rest the creation of our genius? Upon force. Jesus Christ founded His empire upon love; and at this hour millions of men would die for Him."

Respectfully,

Christian

Christian · 03-16-2003, 07:25 PM

Kosh,

Quote:

As to his status, he pretty much created that for himself after he hijacked the movement. There's plenty of reading in the II library on that.

If Paul "hijacked" Christianity, it was a very willing hijacking. Even Peter was convinced by God to spead the gospel to gentiles, and he referred to Paul's letters as "scripture." (2 Pe 3:15-16)

Respectfully,

Christian

Christian · 03-16-2003, 07:36 PM

Kosh,

Quote:

Can you show us where in the Bible Jesus did this?

Gal 1:1, 1 Tim 1:1.

Quote:

He was sent to the gentiles after Peter et al told him to "get out of Dodge" (ie, Jeruselem).

LOL! Interesting characterization of that event.

Quote:

Why are all of these things that Paul said himself? As I said before, he was a self appointed Apostle.

Not according to scripture. As I mentioned earlier, Peter refers to Paul's letters as scripture - which suggests that Peter believed Paul held apostolic authority.

Quote:

In these quotes, do you notice the defensiveness of his writings? People were questioning his authenticity, since his only claim to meeting Jesus was a "vision" (one told with contradictory versions in the NT) on the road to Damascus.... three years after Jesus was allegedly crucified.

I agree that he is defending his authority as an apostle in many of the quotes.

Quote:

Pls. do some homework Christian!

Paul hijacked Xianity, and remolded it to sell it to the Gentiles. What you practice is Paulianity, not Christianity.

Pls provide some evidence for such a claim, besides idle speculation on areas where scripture is silent.
And pls clarify what exactly you mean by that statement.

Thanks.

Respectfully,

Christian

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03-14-2003, 01:08 AM	#41
Christian Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Iraq Posts: 313	Carrie, Onesimus was a runaway slave, probably having stolen some money � vs. 18. Like countless thousands of other runaway slaves, Onesimus fled to Rome. In Rome a runaway slave could lose himself in the capital�s teeming and nondescript slave population. While in Rome Onesimus met Paul and became a Christian. Keep in mind that Onesimus was not living as a slave with Paul, but as a son. Adoption was one of the ways that a slave could become free, and the only real route open to Paul (a Roman citizen) for freeing him � verse 10 is telling Philemon that he (Paul) had freed Onesimus by adopting him (probably literally, but perhaps not. In any case the significance of calling a slave a �son� would not have been lost on anyone in that culture.) Philemon will follow Paul�s advice as if it came strait from God, and Paul knows this. Verse 22 is virtually a threat. Paul stopped only just short of an outright command. Onesimus [a common slave name meaning �useful� � see the word play in vs. 11) was not living as a slave with Paul, and it�s incredibly unlikely that Philemon did not free him. Especially given that this letter was preserved by the church as scripture � the church in Colosse sure didn�t just tear it up. There are numerous scriptural arguments against slavery, and they were used by Christians to shape the public tide that resulted in the abolition of slavery. The golden rule (one of only 2 foundational precepts that the entire Old Testament hangs on) is near the top of the list. Respectfully, Christian

03-14-2003, 01:07 PM	#44
Carrie Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Midwest Posts: 424	Hey Christian, Oh I don't think Paul was keeping Onesimus as a slave, but as a friend and partner in the gospel. And I believe that Philemon probably did free Onesimus. And yeah, good scriptures to use against slavery are in the Bible, such as the "do unto others as you would have done to you." Now, I have heard some Christians say that the reason Jesus and his apostles did not preach against slavery was because it would have been really controversial and would have detracted from their primary message. Now, I don't think preaching against slavery would have worked if that was their primary message and purpose, but if they had at least said that slavery is wrong and it should be abolished, people would have listened. People listened to Jesus and Paul as the voice of God, so if Jesus or Paul had preached against slavery, his followers would have taken heed. As Christianity spread, this message would also spread, as part of the gospel. Part of the freedom from bondage message. Literal bondage, and the figurative bondage of sin. A lot of people became Christians, so perhaps if Jesus had preached against slavery, we would have seen great masses of slaves being released by their Christian masters, and the anti-slavery movement would have begun much sooner. Slavery should never existed in Israel in the first place. The fact that God, via Moses, said that they could have slaves, and beat their slaves to within an inch of their lives, is what ruins any defense. It wasn't the Israelites alone who were at fault. It was God who was to blame. He was the one who said slavery was okay in the first place.

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