Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Dr Rick · 07-18-2002, 01:55 PM

...or the myths about Christ.

Rick

RufusAtticus · 07-18-2002, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GTX:
God said let US make MAN in our image.

It is highly unlikely God was a one celled organism.

Ahh but look at that passage.

Quote:

26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, [2] and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

Nowhere in there does it say how God created man. Why, as a Christian, are you so willing to ignore all the evidence that indicates that He used evolution to produce man?

~~RvFvS~~

Dr Rick · 07-18-2002, 01:59 PM

Also, <a href="http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000D4FEC-7D5B-1D07-8E49809EC588EEDF&pageNumber=1&catID=2" target="_blank">15 Answers to Creationist Nonsense</a> published in Scientific American this past June is a short, easy read.

Rick

Lizard · 07-18-2002, 07:01 PM

Quote:

In the same episode there is a Kevin or Keith Miller, a professor from U of Kansas, who is a fundamentalist and accepts evolution. One of his positions is that from our Homo sapien precursor, God chose a male and female to be Adam and Eve and from them modern man evolved. If he has written anything, it would probably be an interesting read.

Keith Miller is not a fundamentalist. He's an evangelical Christian. He is also a Board member of Kansas Citizens For Science (www.kcfs.org).

You can read some of Keith's writings here:
<a href="http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~kbmill/" target="_blank">http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~kbmill/</a>

Badfish · 07-18-2002, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RufusAtticus:


Nowhere in there does it say how God created man. Why, as a Christian, are you so willing to ignore all the evidence that indicates that He used evolution to produce man?

~~RvFvS~~

Actually it does.

Genesis 2:7
"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and BREATHED life into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became became a living being."

This passage alone, if Cristianity were to be believed is paramount evidence that man was created right then and there.

Badfish · 07-18-2002, 07:23 PM

Rufus, you should know that, me and you and others have gone rounds in other forums

RufusAtticus · 07-19-2002, 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by GTX:


Actually it does.

Genesis 2:7
"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and BREATHED life into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became became a living being."

This passage alone, if Cristianity were to be believed is paramount evidence that man was created right then and there.

But that is a different account of creation. I was specifically addressing the account in Genesis 1, which you brought up previously.

Stephen T-B · 07-19-2002, 02:59 AM

"Genesis 2:7
"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and BREATHED life into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became became a living being."

GTX - you are very VERY simple if you think that that is what actually happened.
Your understanding of god is as simple as that of the people for whom Genesis was originally written: people who knew only what they could observe with the naked eye about the Earth and the Universe.
Ask yourself, what might they have known about these things - and then ask yourself what new information does Genesis add. And I mean information; I do not mean fairy-tale deductions based on the little knowledge already available to them
Ask yourself some questions GTX. It is what many of us here did.
And I think I know why you won't: you won't because you are scared of the answers. That is why Creationists actually believe that curiosity - the �wrong� sort of curiosity � is provoked by the devil. It is why you believe that Darwin was a tool of the devil and that his theory of Evolution is a manifestation of his devilish power.
You are welded to a very old belief system - gods, devils, spirits - and in many respects have more in common with the most backward peoples on this planet than with those who have created the society in which you live and which has provided you with all the things you benefit from and which distinguishes your existence from that of a Papua New Guinea tribesman.
As a Creationist in the USA you are a contradiction: to be a proper Creationist you should forswear every technical, medical, and agricultural innovation that has been made over the last 2,000 years, and adopt a Biblical lifestyle. Do that, and I�ll have some respect for you.

excreationist · 07-19-2002, 03:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hallucigenia:
...And you can prove that the Biblical account of creation was not meant as a metaphor...how?

From AiG's article, <a href="http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/1316.asp" target="_blank">The Necessity for believing in six literal days</a>:

Quote:

The major reason why people doubt that the days of creation are 24-hour literal days usually has nothing to do with what the Bible says, but comes from outside influences. For example, many believe that because scientists have supposedly proved the earth to be billions of years old then the days of creation cannot be ordinary days.

If people use Scripture to try to justify that the days of creation are long periods of time, they usually quote passages such as 2 Peter 3:8, '... one day is with the Lord as a thousand years . . .'. Because of this, they think the days could be a thousand years, or perhaps even millions of years. However, if you look at the rest of the verse, it says, '. . . and a thousand years as one day'. This cancels out their argument! The context of this passage concerns the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ...

...Every time the word yom is used with a number, or with the phrase 'evening and morning', anywhere in the Old Testament, it always means an ordinary day. In Genesis chapter 1, for each of the six days of creation, the Hebrew word yom is used with a number and the phrase, 'evening and morning'. There is no doubt that the writer is being emphatic that these are ordinary days....

...The Bible is adamant though, that death, disease, and suffering came into the world as a result of sin. God instituted death and bloodshed because of sin so man could be redeemed. As soon as Christians allow for death, suffering, and disease before sin, then the whole foundations of the message of the Cross and the Atonement have been destroyed. The doctrine of original sin' then' is totally undermined.

If there were death, disease, and suffering before Adam rebelled � then what did sin do to the world? What does Paul mean in Romans 8 when he says the whole of creation groans in pain because of the Curse? How can all things be restored in the future to no more death and suffering, unless the beginning was also free of death and suffering?...

...If we allow our children to accept the possibility that we can doubt the days of creation when the languages speaks so plainly, then we are teaching them a particular approach to all of Scripture. Why shouldn't they then start to doubt that Christ's Virgin Birth really means a virgin birth? Why shouldn't they start to doubt that the Resurrection really means resurrection?

In fact, there are many theologians who doubt these very things, as they have come to disbelieve the plain words of Scripture written in the foundational Book of Genesis....

Anyway, you said that Biblical account of creation could be a "metaphor"... well a metaphor for what???
Dictionary.com defines the word as this:

1. A figure of speech in which a word or phrase that ordinarily designates one thing is used to designate another, thus making an implicit comparison, as in �a sea of troubles� or �All the world's a stage� (Shakespeare).

2. One thing conceived as representing another; a symbol: �Hollywood has always been an irresistible, prefabricated metaphor for the crass, the materialistic, the shallow, and the craven� (Neal Gabler).

So what do all the things represent? What do the evenings and mornings of the six days represent exactly? Maybe the message is "God created everything". Why didn't God tell us about things that ancient people didn't know? - like evolution - well actually some of the Greeks believed in a kind of evolution I think...

When metaphors are long, each part of it should correspond to the real thing in some way... so then why were plants and fruit trees created on the third day, and then he made the sun, moon and stars on the fourth day, sea creatures and birds on the fifth day, and land animals and humans on the sixth day and then rest?

Saying that God made things, like the stars and animals isn't a metaphor! The only thing that could be a metaphor would be the 6 days part. But the order of creation conflicts with science...

Oolon Colluphid · 07-19-2002, 03:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Stephen T-B:

Your understanding of god is as simple as that of the people for whom Genesis was originally written: people who knew only what they could observe with the naked eye about the Earth and the Universe.
Ask yourself, what might they have known about these things

Stephen raises an important point.

GTX, I wonder what bronze-age middle eastern tribesmen could be expected to know and understand. Do you think that they could grasp genetics, molecular biology or geophysics (hell, most people now can�t!)

So I wonder why Genesis cannot be an allegory. Why must it be literally factual? Is it beyond God�s abilities to use allegory? Surely allusions and allegories abound in the Bible, don�t they? Jesus certainly was familiar with them as a means of getting an idea across (unless you want to argue that the parables are factual accounts of real events and people).

So why would God NOT speak to the Hebrews in terms that they WOULD understand?

TTFN, Oolon

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07-18-2002, 01:55 PM	#21
Dr Rick Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: USA Posts: 5,393	...or the myths about Christ. Rick

07-18-2002, 01:59 PM	#23
Dr Rick Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: USA Posts: 5,393	Also, <a href="http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000D4FEC-7D5B-1D07-8E49809EC588EEDF&pageNumber=1&catID=2" target="_blank">15 Answers to Creationist Nonsense</a> published in Scientific American this past June is a short, easy read. Rick

07-18-2002, 07:23 PM	#26
Badfish Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Death Valley, CA Posts: 1,738	Rufus, you should know that, me and you and others have gone rounds in other forums

07-19-2002, 02:59 AM	#28
Stephen T-B Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Leeds, UK Posts: 5,878	"Genesis 2:7 "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and BREATHED life into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became became a living being." GTX - you are very VERY simple if you think that that is what actually happened. Your understanding of god is as simple as that of the people for whom Genesis was originally written: people who knew only what they could observe with the naked eye about the Earth and the Universe. Ask yourself, what might they have known about these things - and then ask yourself what new information does Genesis add. And I mean information; I do not mean fairy-tale deductions based on the little knowledge already available to them Ask yourself some questions GTX. It is what many of us here did. And I think I know why you won't: you won't because you are scared of the answers. That is why Creationists actually believe that curiosity - the �wrong� sort of curiosity � is provoked by the devil. It is why you believe that Darwin was a tool of the devil and that his theory of Evolution is a manifestation of his devilish power. You are welded to a very old belief system - gods, devils, spirits - and in many respects have more in common with the most backward peoples on this planet than with those who have created the society in which you live and which has provided you with all the things you benefit from and which distinguishes your existence from that of a Papua New Guinea tribesman. As a Creationist in the USA you are a contradiction: to be a proper Creationist you should forswear every technical, medical, and agricultural innovation that has been made over the last 2,000 years, and adopt a Biblical lifestyle. Do that, and I�ll have some respect for you.

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