Sastan

Cremo represents the Hare Krishna's, representing about 0.01% of Hinduism. However, he's an OEC, believing the Earth (and life) to be in the ten's of billions of years, IIRC.

boneyard bill

Panta Pei writes:

I don't think the parallel is all that close. Interdependent co-arising is merely descriptive and makes no claims regarding causal mechanisms in the Western sense. There is also no hint of any kind of progressive development in the process.

That said, I also think the Buddha claimed that such speculations on origins and causes were endless and circular and not conducive to enlightenment.

lpetrich

That's right. He even made an analogy about what you do if someone shoots an arrow at you. The first thing you do is remove it -- and not to try to answer a lot of questions about it, such as what materials were used to make the arrow, who shot the arrow, etc.

Panta Pei

boneyard bill writes:

"That said, I also think the Buddha claimed that such speculations on origins and causes were endless and circular and not conducive to enlightenment."

Yet, this very quest lies at the core of the fable of Siddharta's journey to wakefulness and is that which led to his own personal discovery and message.

Also, an absolute origin is not claimed in evolutionary theory. To evolve is simply to develop by gradual changes. Interdependent co-arising.

lpetrich writes:

"That's right. He even made an analogy about what you do if someone shoots an arrow at you. The first thing you do is remove it -- and not to try to answer a lot of questions about it, such as what materials were used to make the arrow, who shot the arrow, etc."

This recollection is not completely correct. The parable of the arrow, from the Majjhima Nikaya refers to the unnecessary need to acquire the answers to all philosophical questions before meditation and practice of the way of Buddha:

"It is as if a man had been wounded by a poisoned arrow and when attended to by a physician were to say, 'I will not allow you to remove this arrow until I have learned the caste, the age, the occupation, the birthplace, and the motivation of the person who wounded me.' That man would die before having learned all this. In exactly the same way, anyone who should say, 'I will not follow the teaching of the Blessed One until the Blessed One has explained all the multiform truths of the world' -- that person would die before the Buddha had explained all this."

So, you can see,it was more a form of member cultivation than an instruction to avoid specific questions about a real arrow.

One of my favorite sutras along this line, from the Samyutta Nikaya, refers to a realistic-almost scientific-examination of life:

"What, monks, is totality? It is just the eye with the objects of sight, the ear with the objects of hearing, the nose with the objects of smell, the body with the objects of touch, and the mind with the objects of cognition. This, monks, is called totality.

Now, if anyone were to say: 'Aside from this explanation of totality, I will speak another totality,' that person would be speaking empty words, and being questioned would not be able to answer. Why is this? Because that person is talking about something outside of possible knowledge."

Sounds like a familiar refrain from those of this honored forum

I hope this clarifies my earlier assertion along this thread in contrast to other positions.

~ Steve

Pahansiri

Greetings, I hope all are well and happy.

Many great post, and from a Buddhist prospective Panta Pei's/ Steve's post and his including the Buddha's Majjhima Nikaya and Samyutta Nikaya, very great.

Of course such questions are good to ponder to a point, a point well before where either fear enters or a point of craving and obsession. As to how the Buddha viewed evolution if you will besides what has been mentioned we can also find in the Aganna Sutta

The Buddha described or describing the universe like all compound things subject to impermanence. Being destroyed and then re-evolving into its present form over a period of countless millions of years. The sutra explains the first life formed on the surface of the water and again, over countless millions of years, evolved into complex organisms from very simple forms. In many sutras he talked of billions of world systems and many realms, all of which subject to decay and rebirth. All these processes are without beginning or end, and are set in motion by natural causes.


Please know I speak only with great respect all and say only what I believe.

Have for yourself and all living things loving kindness, respect and compassion.

"Albert Einstein quote: "If there is any religion that would cope with modern scientific needs, it would be Buddhism."

'Buddhism has the characteristics of what would be expected in a cosmic religion for the future: it transcends a personal God, avoids dogmas and theology; it covers both the natural & spiritual, and it is based on a religious sense aspiring from the experience of all things, natural and spiritual, as a meaningful unity' - Einstein"

It is interesting that a lot of physicists seem to follow Buddhist principles, which is perhaps, not so surprising after all...The Buddha had a remarkable ability to see what there is to see and to deal with what's there. That made his approach to the spiritual or to the human problem of existence very refreshing. This is very similar to what a scientist does. We try to drop all assumptions about the way things should be, and deal with things the way they are. Although that's not always possible to do, it nevertheless is the basis of Buddhist thought.
Fred Allen Wolf, PhD.

Waning Moon Conrad

Greetings,

I read a reference to a Sutra where the Buddha Shakyamuni tells his disciples that once, all of the sentient beings on this planet, lived on another one and the sun of that planet swelled, exploded and destroyed all life. Due to collective karma, we all wafted over to this one and began to incarnate/transmigrate when life forms had evolved that could actually hold a mind-stream.

Do you know what that Sutra is called? (Maybe it's the Aganna but then again, maybe it's not.)

Pahansiri

Greetings my friend Waning Moon.

I hope you are very well and happy. Here is a study guide to the Aggañña Sutta.

Waning Moon Conrad

Where?

Long LIfe and Good Health to you.

Pahansiri

LOL, I am so sorry, I can be such a dork... Here you go my friend <a href="http://www.webcastmy.com.my/bodhivision/aganna/AggannaS.htm" target="_blank">http://www.webcastmy.com.my/bodhivision/aganna/AggannaS.htm</a>

jess

Those last three interchanges were so at odds--- the gentle, formal language, and the 'such a dork'---

(nothing to contribute...)