ManM

Brian63,
And so the battle rages on?
I would only support forced indoctrination if I had a clear moral reason to do so. I do not object to teaching children the scientific method. However, it should not be taught against a parent's wishes. As you well know, I am skeptical of anyone who equates a certain belief about the world with morality. Quite simply I think Mr. Humphrey has fallen into that trap. In some cases a belief may be a problem (a girl must sacrifice herself to the Gods), but in other cases an unorthodox belief may be completely harmless. Is it worth causing pain to the parents to squash a harmless belief? Now that is something I find highly immoral.

Brian63

Aren't you imposing your own morality on them then? You are the one determining whether their beliefs are harmful or harmless, and thus whether they should be indoctrinated with them. I don't understand how you account for that.

Brian

Jamie_L

Here's the thing about "indoctrinating" children:

A parent has an obligation to teach his children the truth about the world. You teach them not to touch hot things. You teach them how to play nice with others because they need to do that to get by in the world. You teach them that if they aren't careful climbing on things, they'll fall and get hurt.

Now, if you honestly BELIEVE that if you don't follow some religion you'll put your immortal soul in peril, then it is your duty as a parent to teach your child not to put their soul in peril.

Likewise, if you believe religion is a dangerous thing that puts believers and society at risk, it's your duty as a parent to teach your kids that religion is bunk and that there is no god.

So, I can't really fault anyone for "indoctrinating" their kids this way. I understand and sypathize with the other side of the arguement, but think about it a minute. People who have strong beliefs don't think of those beliefs as being one of many that may be true. They think their beliefs are true. It's silly to say to someone that they should let their children choose between false beliefs. We all want our children to know how the world works. We just disagree about how it works.

Jamie

Brian63

Jamie_L,

It's been several days since I read the essay linked to in the OP, but as I recall there was a story about some primitive culture that sacrificed a young girl into a volcano as an offering to their gods. They thought it was what was best for them (and possibly for her too).

Are you suggesting that that type of abusive behavior should be allowed?

Or when a father tells his child that he/she is too stupid in life to amount to anything, and would be better off dead, he is telling that kid what he believes to be true. I find it difficult to believe that you would support that kind of behavior.

In truth, we do make judgments about the way other parents raise their kids. Sometimes we think they are doing an excellent job, and sometimes we think they are terrible. We have social services that extract children from unhealthy home environments for just that reason. Do you oppose such programs?

Brian

Jamie_L

Brian,

I'm not necessarily taking a stance on the issue, just pointing out something about parenting. I'm a recent parent, and I have thrown myself into the role. I love my kids, and I dread the thought of people filling their heads with garbage.

Turning the tables, I suspect theist parents feel the same way. They don't want anyone filling their kids' heads with "garbage". From a moral standpoint, the individual parent has a moral obligation to protect their child from what they perceive as mental "garbage".

There may in fact be a competing moral obligation for society to protect kids from their own parents', if those parents' view of mental "garbage" is dangerous. In extreme cases, we already do this. However, the grey areas of traditional religion are much thornier. As a parent, I am very leery of giving society (i.e. the government) control over waht my kids can and can't be taught. Imagine the U.S. Department of Freethought, policing what we teach our kids, cornering them on the street and asking them what to believe to make sure we aren't violating their rights. Very Orwellian. I shudder to think.

In the interests of protecting my rights, I would probably tend to support the rights of parents who are filling their kid's heads with what I perceive as garbage. I'm not sure what the practical alternative is.

Jamie

ManM

Brian63,
You are right, I would be imposing my own morality on them. I'm not really sure what to think about this situation. On the one hand I see a clear problem with certain beliefs (the gods must be appeased by human sacrifice). But then again there is a huge element of uncertainty about this. Granting our ignorance about things, I think Jamie_L is right. There is not really any practical solution.

DRFseven

And, in truth, children are "indoctrinated" in every aspect of their lives; almost every social behavior is an indoctrination, from learning standards of cleanliness and manners to moral opinions. It's not coincidental that the best predictors of presidential elections are mock presidential elections in the elementary schools. However, since this is the whole point of children having parents and the whole, long instructional period in which they learn to cope with a complicated environment, we wouldn't want "indoctrination" not to work. I guess the definition of indoctrination of children is the teaching of the type of behavior of which one doesn't approve!

snatchbalance

When I think of an education in the sciences, I think of learning established, repeatable principles, principles based on physical evidence, along with a method for arriving at such principles.

Religious instruction is simply indoctrination in a set of accepted myths. There is no attempt at including any type of thought process in the curriculum.

I don't think that it is simply a matter of parental preference. One leads to understanding; the other leads to a form of ignorance.

How can the promulgation of ignorance be morally justified?

SB

[ August 06, 2002: Message edited by: snatchbalance ]</p>

Bree

I just have a very hard time with parents who "indoctrinate" to the point where the children are emotionally and/or physically harmed by the process.

For example, we have a small but very strange church in town where "craft time" for children involves supergluing naked Ken and Barbie dolls into various sexual positions. These dolls are then strung up on nooses and left with cryptic "you are all sexually immoral" notes at the University Cafe. The local TV station did a spoof on them - these children are between the ages of 5 and 8, and are all being taught about the "evils" of human sexuality through explicit Ken and Barbie use.

Now, I could care less if they wanted to go about telling people how oral sex on a woman is Satan's way of disturbing God's peace - but do you have to teach the kids so young? And with drawings and pictures and Barbies?

brighid

I am not sure how one goes about prohibiting parents from indoctrinating their children in various degrees of any cult mentality. I am not even sure I would support such a prohibition as I can see (as we see with creationism and abstinence education) that if others gained the upper hand and insisted my child be taught as they saw fit.

I personally feel it is wrong to indoctrinate children into religion because of the complexities and they myriad of issues and problems those teaching bring to ones life. I have told me son, upon the question “Mommy, what are we?” that we are no religion. I have told him that religious choice is an adult decision and that we would always do our best to answer his questions openly and honestly. He has been exposed to many different faiths already and we strongly encourage his studies in science, math, logic and critical thinking. In the meantime we will discuss the pertinent issues and as always encourage him to research and discover his own answers.

I think the world would be a better place if we were all taught basic skills from birth on and religious decisions were only allowed to be made in adulthood and through out childhood each child was exposed to all manners of theological and philosophical thoughts.

Brighid