Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Magus55 · 06-10-2003, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by braces_for_impact
That's what the text says. But, good luck trying to get the whole world to follow one leader, it won't happen.

Also, why is it every time I think about a bunch of fundies floating through the air to meet an unkempt jew in the clouds while organ music plays in the background I have to giggle?

Oh yeah, because it's silly.

Who said we would be floating in the air, what do you mean by an unkempt Jew? And there won't be organ music playing - it will be trumpets ( and im not even sure unbelievers will be able to hear them).

wildernesse · 06-10-2003, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by xsquid
No, Magus, that's my argument. If God would do it then, how do you know he's not doing it now, or that he didn't do it 3500 years ago? And that would kinda mock other passages; didn't Peter describe God as one "who cannot lie"?

But you're still off the rails--we were talking about the Antichrist. Given your answer, the lying God is why you believe us poor infidels would follow him. I think history is clear on this point: no dictator in history has ever held absolute control. There have always been rebels; some famous, most obscure, but they've always been there. Your own holy book shows that.
The Czars had them, Caesar had them, Hitler had them, Nixon had them.
The so-called Antichrist--assuming he ever appears--will have them too. And if the Rapture is true, you won't be here to resist him!
A Soldier of Christ who runs from battle! You should be ashamed.

If you believe the end times will happen like the "Left Behind" (I've read four or five until the story got stretched thin and also I quit the Christian bookstore I worked in) series does (pre-trib rapture of the church), then there will be those who are in rebellion against the Anti-christ. They will come to believe in Christianity and be a remnant that will be persecuted for not taking the mark of the beast and not following the Anti-christ.

Not that this really answers your question--in that it assumes that the infidels/etc. will all follow the leader.

--tibac

Magus55 · 06-10-2003, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by xsquid
No, Magus, that's my argument. If God would do it then, how do you know he's not doing it now, or that he didn't do it 3500 years ago? And that would kinda mock other passages; didn't Peter describe God as one "who cannot lie"?

Because if you read those passages in context, you would see its a Judgement from God. He is sending a strong delusion because everyone that sees the delusion, already rejected His gift of Salvation. Why would God send a delusion to those who accepted His gift of Salvation. Try reading the Bible completely and in context, and you'll see why that makes no sense.

And read the verse again. God will send them a delusion so that THEY may believe a lie. God isn't lying - He specifically states He will send a delusion. You just read that verse, so you know God is going to send a delusion. Thats telling the truth - thats what He will do. He isn't saying He will send a strong delusion, and then not actually send one.

Quote:

But you're still off the rails--we were talking about the Antichrist. Given your answer, the lying God is why you believe us poor infidels would follow him. I think history is clear on this point: no dictator in history has ever held absolute control. There have always been rebels; some famous, most obscure, but they've always been there. Your own holy book shows that.
The Czars had them, Caesar had them, Hitler had them, Nixon had them.
The so-called Antichrist--assuming he ever appears--will have them too. And if the Rapture is true, you won't be here to resist him!
A Soldier of Christ who runs from battle! You should be ashamed.

I already resisted him, when I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior - We won't be running away from battle, Jesus will be pulling us out because we are already saved - the Tribulation is for the unbelievers and sinners, and the last ditch attempt for people to come to Christ.

Jesus will conquer the AC at the end of the Tribulation, why do I need to "resist" him?

xsquid · 06-10-2003, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
An uncountable number of people will see through the delusion and find the Truth in Jesus, but many who care more about the world will be lured by the AC and will be fooled. Thats what ya get for rejecting Jesus.

...so there. Nyah.
So God IS going to delude everyone left!

Okay, Magus: why should we hold this God in any higher esteem than the AC, if both of them are deceiving us? I'm leaving for work soon; I look forward to hearing your lame reasoning on this one.

Magus55 · 06-10-2003, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by xsquid
...so there. Nyah.
So God IS going to delude everyone left!

Okay, Magus: why should we hold this God in any higher esteem than the AC, if both of them are deceiving us? I'm leaving for work soon; I look forward to hearing your lame reasoning on this one.

Because God is doing it as Judgement and the AC is doing it at the command of Satan so you will fall into his trap and end up in Hell. The people that fall for the delusion are already deceived. They have already hardened their hearts to God and are holding on to the sinful world. Its not like the delusion is going to make those who have faith in Jesus suddenly reject Him, its going to make those who reject Him, continue to reject Him. Obviously since God says people will be saved during this time, the delusion can be seen through. The deciding factor will be, do you want to be saved, or do you want to follow the AC's promises on Earth? Those who are too stubborn to believe, and don't want to be saved ( many atheists fit into this category), will continue to be deluded, just like they have their whole lives rejecting God as a myth and a fantasy.

As romans 1 states, the delusion is God giving man to the desires of his heart. The people that are fooled by the delusion, want a lie - the lie is the same lie thats been going on since creation - that God doesn't exist and humans can be their own "gods". Read Romans 1, thats what the delusion is about.

xsquid · 06-10-2003, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
The deciding factor will be, do you want to be saved, or do you want to follow the AC's promises on Earth? Those who are too stubborn to believe, and don't want to be saved ( many atheists fit into this category), will continue to be deluded, just like they have their whole lives rejecting God as a myth and a fantasy.

As romans 1 states, the delusion is God giving man to the desires of his heart.

If God is giving man to the desires of his heart--through deception--and the AC is doing the same--why should one be held in more esteem than the other? Because one has The Truth TM and the other doesn't? How can we know? The question still stands, Magus.

Magus55 · 06-10-2003, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by xsquid
If God is giving man to the desires of his heart--through deception--and the AC is doing the same--why should one be held in more esteem than the other? Because one has The Truth TM and the other doesn't? How can we know? The question still stands, Magus.

The Bible is how we can know, but you don't find any worth with that, so I guess your just outta luck. Thats the whole point of the delusion. You don't care about God or His message, so why shouldn't He let you believe the lie of the AC?

Biff the unclean · 06-10-2003, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
... so why shouldn't He let you believe the lie of the AC?

Did you ever notice Magus that while the rest of the Xians here (for the most part) talk about a God of love and kindness and grace the God you focus on is one nasty son-of-a-bitch.
These can't both be God. Where do you think the others went wrong?

Demigawd · 06-10-2003, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
The Bible is how we can know

And you've done such a wonderful job demonstrating the circular reasoning and arrogant closemindedness necesarry to actually believe the above assertion to be true, Magus55, during your visits to this site.

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but you don't find any worth with that, so I guess your just outta luck.

Smugness: a quality I [sarcasm] love so dearly [/sarcasm] for it makes identifying a fundie that much easier.

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Thats the whole point of the delusion.

Oh, the irony!

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You don't care about God or His message, so why shouldn't He let you believe the lie of the AC?

How emotional you are, Magus55. You're projecting your own sense of philosophical rejection onto a supposed supreme being. Just like the various authors of the bible did once they realized that not everyone they preached to was a rube. Hence, all those "prophecies" of christians being persecuted, mocked, etc.

Frankly, Magus55, you ought to move to a nice rural Southern area and become a preacher. Your zeal would make you an over-night success amongst my gullible kinfolk.

Demigawd · 06-10-2003, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Biff the unclean
Did you ever notice Magus that while the rest of the Xians here (for the most part) talk about a God of love and kindness and grace the God you focus on is one nasty son-of-a-bitch.

Of course Magus55 would take his supposed god to be a right-royal bastard. He is a bible literalist. The god of the OT displays all the qualities one would expect to find in a paranoid bloodthirsty tyrant. And no amount of gymnastic apologetics can obfuscate that depiction.

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