capsaicin67

Buffman,
Interesting, obviously we agree about the overview of how we are being outmaneuvered by the religious extremists. A very professional organization with an extremely sophisticated and well-funded marketing arm is indicated.

I honestly hadn't given the march, specifically, that much thought, but I find your analysis and take on it to be interesting and what my general intuitive feeling was prior, though you flesh it out much better. I think you make very sound points: the xian media machine is so dominant and pervasive that is is quite possible that they already own and control the meaning of *our* march! I will cheerfully rejoice at this not being the case and turning out to be wrong, but......

One thing that I think a xian organization might likely do if they were in our position, for instance, would be to plan the marketing of it to be, well, marketable. They would be calling it the Families for the Constitution March, or the Liberty and Justice For All March, or the Patriots For The Constitution March etc [actually they would probably be much more shameless and duplicitous than those examples but you get my drift, those examples are pretty forthright AND marketable, IMHO]. *That* is sophisticated marketing and control of meaning---and would be far more inclusive and solve some other problems I've seen discussed, too.

That being said, I hope it all works out regardless of the particular strategy adopted this round. Truth is we may have to get our asses even more seriously kicked before nontheists really pull together and get serious about restoring and protecting the Enlightenment-inspired American script that seems to have existed largely until the mid-20th century-----liberty and justice for all.

The facts are pretty well on our side-----that is why they are trying to win the battle by controlling the media outlets and message of the debate. They are able to create new "facts", and also to drown out the other side through sheer volume and resources. Now if we ever add our facts *to professional, high quality, sophisticated, marketing power*, well, then I think we will be a force to be reckoned with....!

Alonzo Fyfe

This is probably correct.

I would have suggested marketing the "Godless" march as the "Unity" march, with the slogans "one nation, indivisible" and "e pluribis unum" all over the place.

This would have been the theme -- a theme with which no reasonable American could actually disagree.

And anybody who opposed the march would be branding themselves as somebody who promotes division over unity.

I would have increased the size and the power of the march by including whatever Christian groups agreed to a set of principles that, effectlively, endorsed the separation of Church and State -- rather than limiting the scope only to those who do not believe in God.

(Note: Gay and black civil-rights marches marketed their movement in such a way that a straight or a white person could participate, if only they believed in the cause -- equal treatment.)

With this type of message, even the satanists could have joined without doing much damage, because they would have been outweighed by a significantly larger number of pro-equality Christains.

Plus, in doing so, we would have had access to some of that marketing know-how and infrastructure that, now, will be used against us.

The one danger in such a plan would be that the religious right could actually gain control. To prevent this, some early objective of the march would have been outlined -- such as changing the national motto back to its original form -- which the hard-line religious right could not accept.

But that's just my opinion.

[ July 29, 2002: Message edited by: Alonzo Fyfe ]</p>

capsaicin67

I would have suggested marketing the "Godless" march as the "Unity" march, with the slogans "one nation, indivisible" and "e pluribis unum" all over the place.

Hmmmmm. I think I would keep the Title/theme clear and concise and containing the message itself. This will likely be given extremely brief airtime and notice by the media, thus the title may be about all we can control and all that gets [and really must be] shared if they cover the story at all. Unlike the Pope's visit to Canada [&gt;skip rant about how stupid those people must be to give props to the RCC in the year that they were outed for the scam and exploiters they are----worse than Enron, IMO&lt;]where MSNBC fawned and discussed and covered his magic helicopter ride [the flying reindeer must have been unavailable] etc. A decrepit dude that dresses funny and that is obviously an ad of compelling reasons to NOT believe in a god. In any case, it is given gobs of airtime and deference. I think the type of event in our thought experiment would get a soundbyte's worth of time TOPS. Unity would be vague, E Pluribus perhaps too intellectual and cryptic too. Rather, *make them say* the words that give it our meaning, and which no American can disagree with, and most would understand!

This would have been the theme -- a theme with which no reasonable American could actually disagree.

Well put, that's the pivotal idea in creating an effective message, IMO......

The one danger in such a plan would be that the religious right could actually gain control. To prevent this, some early objective of the march would have been outlined -- such as changing the national motto back to its original form -- which the hard-line religious right could not accept.

Excellent point and solution.

I would have increased the size and the power of the march by including whatever Christian groups agreed to a set of principles that, effectlively, endorsed the separation of Church and State -- rather than limiting the scope only to those who do not believe in God.

Note: Gay and black civil-rights marches marketed their movement in such a way that a straight or a white person could participate, if only they believed in the cause -- equal treatment.)

With this type of message, even the satanists could have joined without doing much damage, because they would have been outweighed by a significantly larger number of pro-equality Christains.



Exactly.

Buffman

"United We Stand" and "United We March." These are the kinds of banners that should be promoting a March of Inclusion...not division. Anyone and everyone who supports the Separation of Church and State should be made to feel welcome and comfortable marching.

As an Atheist March, it's perceived as a March Against God. That's a loser from the "git-go."

I realize that I am taking a rather unpopular stand on this...especially in these forums. However, I simply can not remain silent when I see what I believe could be a media disaster about to unfold. I don't say this from some academic/intellectual Ivory Tower. I say this because I have seen what can happen.

During the Vietnam War, while flying missions out of Kadena Air Force Base on Okinawa in 1971, I was advised about a planned protest that was scheduled to take place just outside one of the main gates of the base. The purpose of the demonstration was to protest the Vietnam War, the American military presence on Okinawa, and the return of Okinawa to Japan.

After a small, though vocal, crowd had assembled outside the gate, I saw two bus loads of people pull up at the back of the crowd. They de-bussed and started preparations. They donned various military looking uniforms very similar to those worn by the gate Security Police, others wore Red Cross, nurse like outfits, others were dressed in normal street clothes, and still others were armed with the latest video cameras. Then the whole bunch moved to the front of the crowd, still well short of the gate, and staged a "bloody" confrontation between the phoney military and the phoney protesters while the cameramen covered it from every angle. Then they all returned to the busses, changed back into their normal attire, and drove off. Guess what pictures and headlines appeared, in color, on page one and on the TV news shows throughout much of Asia for the next few days?

This entire group of professional protestors had been flown in from Japan to stage this phoney confrontation and had used the local protestors and the U.S. Security Police as their background props.---All the denials and explanations by U.S. Government officials barely made any news report.

Okinawa was returned to Japan in 1972.

<a href="http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9604/15/perry.japan/" target="_blank">http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9604/15/perry.japan/</a>

Is something like this likely at the Atheist March? Probably not, but the point should be clear. Professionals know how to use protests to their advantage. Currently, the radical Christian right is the professional organization and the Atheists are the amateurs. Just look at the speed and efficiency of the protests against the 9th District ruling. The entire country, including Congress, were energized within just hours. That's an impressive display of national/local planning, organization, leadership and communications control.

The only "grassroots" support that Atheists can hope for is if other Christians, and minority theists, recognize the danger to them from one denomination's ideology (biased values) gaining control of our government because the "wall of separation" between religion and government has been seriously breached. IMHO, to believe otherwise is an atheist myth.

god-free-pen

Quote:

The only "grassroots" support that Atheists can hope for is if other Christians, and minority theists, recognize the danger to them from one denomination's ideology (biased values) gaining control of our government because the "wall of separation" between religion and government has been seriously breached. IMHO, to believe otherwise is an atheist myth. Unquote:

That's not quite true IMHO. We will have the support of each other for the FIRST time in history in HUGE numbers. I marched with Madalyn on the California State Capital some years ago. We were all grinning and smiling...... onlookers couldn't help but be happy with us. (and some joined us!)

I don't fear violence too much because atheists are generally a very well behaved intelligent group of people. Even the teenagers are such critical thinkers and seem courageous, but not foolhardy. I don't think they would allow the media to manipulate a violent scenario.

If a religious group did in fact cause trouble they would cast themselves in a very bad light.
It would be great to have the assistance of minority religious groups but needing them? No, that's not the message I want to send.

[ July 29, 2002: Message edited by: god-free-pen ]</p>

4th Generation Atheist

I agree with Buffman's "marketing" ideas; if it were "my" march, I'd have called it something like that. Look at the difference between MLK's marches, done during a time in which Black civil rights had a lot less support than they do today and drawing hundreds of thousands, and Louis Farrakhan's, which looked silly and divisive to many even in the community they're supposed to serve, and didn't draw nearly as many. Marketing. And specific objectives.

But it wasn't my decision, and I'm left with the same feelings I have every time other atheists are speaking up in a controversial manner: anxious ones. I want to participate, and support, because they are issues I care about. Also, I want to see it done right, so that the result won't be more harm than good. But since I lack the skills and resources to plan a giant march of my own, I'm stuck with whatever else is provided. I'll go, and let the details be handled by others (ie quit worrying and do this thing), but I agree with the timing concerns and the naming of the march; this way, the liberal theists, who are still the numerical majority in this country, are left out. For an attempt at a big "grassroots" movement, leaving out a possibly helpful majority is a bad tactical mistake. I think in this case, something like a huge secular memorial to 9/11---an issue an enormous number of people have resonance with, and a demonstration of "inclusion for atheists", an issue that touches a large number of us with particular immediacy---would have been a better idea. Or perhaps choosing one of the specific C/S issues, the tactic the abortion rights marches in the '80s used to show widespread support for a specific right. But again, I didn't plan the thing.

Novowels

I have to say, this topic rather saddens me. We all point and shake our heads at the absurdity of two Christian denominations that exclude each other (while at the same time believing in basically the same things) and at the same time we take some atheists with a Satanic philosophy and try to exclude them from a simple march.



Let's be frank here, even if everyone in this march was a clean-cut business-person with sensible clothing and model-citizen behavior, the Religious Right will find something to hate us about. We can't make their job easier. They already can say whatever they want about us, up to and including outright lying.

Having satanists, who are indeed "godless," in the march is a good thing. Having anyone in the march is a good thing. Hey, the more the merrier. Are we going to not let atheistic Buddhists march with us? Religion does not equal theism. Magic, even with the absurd "+k" spelling is not theism. This is not a "naturalist" march. This is a "Godless" march.

As an atheist, I find this whole argument quite galling.

-William

Buffman

god-free-pen

That's not quite true IMHO. We will have the support of each other for the FIRST time in history in HUGE numbers.

HUGE numbers? As compared to what?

I marched with Madalyn on the California State Capital some years ago. We were all grinning and smiling...... onlookers couldn't help but be happy with us. (and some joined us!)

I am all for people enjoying themselves. Making new friends. Organizing for the future. All the positive things that a March can promote. But what is the purpose and goal of this March? To demonstrate that there are atheists in America? That's hardly news. That atheists can organize a March? Every town across America can organize a March...of some sort...with fire trucks, plows, the Mayor's car with Miss Corn Tassel sitting in the back smiling and waving to the crowd. How does any of this get the media to present the true case for Church-State Separation? How does this influence state and federal legislatures? How does this educate the general, Christian majority, populace that elected governments should not be in the God Business? How does it demonstrate the treachery of an elected representative that places his faith beliefs before his sworn constitutional oath? Please help me to understand how this March is anything more than an atheist feel good exercise. (If several million people showed up, then the country would take notice. Billy Graham can fill Yankee Stadium...all by himself.)---IMHO, Madalyn did as much to marginalize and undermine atheist credibility as she did to thrust it down people's throats.

I don't fear violence too much because atheists are generally a very well behaved intelligent group of people. Even the teenagers are such critical thinkers and seem courageous, but not foolhardy. I don't think they would allow the media to manipulate a violent scenario.
If a religious group did in fact cause trouble they would cast themselves in a very bad light.

I don't foresee a scenario like I described above. The point of sharing my experience was to help educate people to just how far down the ladder of professionalism atheism really is at this juncture in American history. The issue I have been attempting expose is why it is so far down that ladder even though it has the advantage of verifiable evidence on its side. Thougth I realize that it is tiresome, I will repeat again....mis-information, dis-information, propaganda and outright falsehoods have the ear of the national media. Unless fact finds a method of overcoming fiction, then the falsehoods will become the facts. Unfortunately, many already have. How was this accomplished? Until that is known, there is no method of stopping it from continuing and even becoming worse.

Have you been following the political cooperation between Falwell, Robertson, the Mormon Church, the Moonies, the other religious conservative organizations and the politically conservative foundations/institutes? Do Americans United or People For the American Way support/cooperate with atheism...or do they look to atheists to support/cooperate with them? --- Honestly, I am not attempting to rain on this parade....even if I prayed and danced from now until 2 Nov. I know it would not change the natural weather patterns. However, I am concerned that this March can be used to change political voting patterns in favor of more religious conservatives. That does disturb me.

DougI

The history of protest speaks for itself what isn't mentioned is the purpose of dissenters opposed to the march. One can simply opt out of the march just as one can opt out of watching must see tv, but there must be something particular threatening to a person who oppressively demands others not march as well.

Buffman

DougI

The history of protest speaks for itself...

Exactly what does it say?

... what isn't mentioned is the purpose of dissenters opposed to the march.

Who, exactly, are those opposed to the march? What do you think could be their purpose?

One can simply opt out of the march just as one can opt out of watching must see tv, but there must be something particular threatening to a person who oppressively demands others not march as well.

Exactly who is "oppressively" demanding others not to march? Are you inferring that anyone who questions the march is an atheistic "heretic?"