jfryejr

I think that's a moot point as it is impossible to reach absolute zero (read on the 2nd and 3rd laws of thermodynamics). It's the same as arguing if time will stop when one actually goes the speed of light. Our equations go to infinity and the laws of physics cease to apply.

Not that all existence has ceased, but that the entropy of the system (not sure if I mean system...object maybe) is zero. I'm not sure that you actually meant existence, though...

I don't think there is a where time stops. There are singularities, but I don't think physics applies beyond the event horizon, so whether or not time could be perceived is unknown, or at least the time would be undescribable. Anyone out there enough of a physics buff to answer this (preferably simply)?

Liked your post Quantum Ninja. Never thought about it like that.

nebUlous

Yes, it is impossible, but in theory it exists.

I guess it depends on your definition of existence. I meant it in the sense that there is absolutely no movement, not even on a sub-atomic level, which entails no form of life or physical matter.

It was actually more of a question that I was throwing out, to get other's responses...If, for example, you are within the singularity where time stops, for you, time is stopped. That is, if it were possible to exist in such an environment, just for the sake of this example. Outside of that singular environment, however, time continues, and so one must necessarily concede that we are able to calculate the amount of time that the singular environment exists. It is surely a physically impossible situation based on space-time fabric and the supposed "continuum", and a situation that would not be permitted in any physical model.

Physics may not apply beyond the event horizon, but if we are to accept that the universe exists, is contained within a greater structure, then for the purposes of this argument, we must consider where it stops and what it is contained in. In other words, if the universe is but a singular existence, then reaching absolute zero in the universe would be a complete halt of existence. Again, in other words still: If there is nothing to look into the universe from, then time has stopped, as motion has stopped. Since there is no outside point of reference (that is, if we accept to believe that there is "nothing" beyond the event horizon), then there is no manner of measuring the passing of time. If, however, there is an existence beyond the event horizon, a point of reference, if you will, then we can determine how long the motionless state has existed, therefore time exists.

Very abstract....I hope I made it clear...

Nowhere357

I think you are describing world-lines? One problem I see is that at any given point, a world line would have basically an infinite number of branches, due to quantum randomness.

A timy example supporting my view that time is simply the measurement of physical change, is that food in the freezer lasts longer - the molecular motion has slowed down.

I do want to say that your diagrams were very creative - I bet you could do wizardly things with a cad program!

nebUlous

This is an excellent analogy.

Quantum Ninja

Yes, I was describing world-lines, or my interpretation of them. But you're probably right about the effects of quantum randomness. For the sake of simplicity though, my example was assuming a completely deterministic universe, since all future "events" already exist in a spatial dimension (yikes, I can't even imagine trying to draw infinitely many branches at each point on my diagram!)



Good example. I like it.

Thanks!

jfryejr

nebUlous, I think we more or less agree on what we think, we're just saying it in different ways...maybe, tell me what you think. Time does exist in a material way. It does however vary relativistically.

If one were to approach the event horizon of a singularity, time would flow normally for them. They could still count "1 mississippi" and look at their atomic clocks and that would still approximate a second of how they remember time on Earth. They would eventually cross the event horizon and be destroyed in some fashion. During all of this, time for them is perceived as normal, it is relative to their frame of reference.

To someone looking on from a good distance, however, the person would appear to hover at the event horizon forever (?-at least a very long time). Essentially, the outside observer would say that time has stopped for the person approaching the singularity. They would age and die, while they're jealous of the person on the ship for living so long...even though nothing real was gained for the person on the ship since time flowed normally for him. [Most of the spaceship analogy is what I remember from various examples of relativity...I'm not trying to claim that as an original thought...]

I see your point (now) about being motionless. It's hard to conceptualize the total absence of motion (the movement of atoms keeps popping into my head). While I can't concede, necessarily, that time stops, I can agree that time as we know it stops, or at least becomes unimaginable.

Bob K

Here is a website for a definition of time:

http://www.bobkwebsite.com/invriabletimeintrvls.html

Operational Definition of Time: Time is the use of time-intervals for the measurement of the occurrences of events in sequences of events.

The key concept herein is the time-interval, the TI.

The key principle herein is that time is not used to measure where in terms of distance, length, width, etc., but, instead, is used to measure when.

Time is the answer to the question When?

Humans want to know when an event happened/occurred.

Regardless of where it happened, there is a when for an event’s happening.

When is linked to simultaneity (at the same timepoint) and non-simultaneity (at different timepoints--before or after).

TIs come in two flavors, the variable time-interval, the VTI, and the invariable time-interval, the ITI.

VTIs are found in clocks, variable time-interval clocks, VTICs, which are not motion-sensing and self-adjusting or otherwise are not synchronized with similar clocks by radio signals from a masterclock and whose TIs/VTIs are subject to changes resulting from changes of velocity/gravity.

ITIs are found in invariable time-interval clocks, or ITICs, which are motion-sensing and self-adjusting or otherwise are synchronized with similar clocks by radio signals from a masterclock and whose TIs/ITIs are adjusted for changes resulting from changes of velocity/gravity.

Regardless of the duration for the TI/ITI of a set of ITICs, once chosen, the ITI and therefore the ITICs set universal time, absolute time, time everywhere and anywhere in the universe the same.

The key herein is the TI for the ITI for the ITICs.

Once a specific TI is chosen for an ITI for a set of ITICs, Set A, universal time is established for and by the set of ITICs.

If another, different, TI is chosen for an ITI for another set of ITICs, Set B, universal time is again established and the ITICs of/within Set B will all show the same face-readings/time-stamps.

The durations of the ITICs in A and B will have a difference and that difference can be expressed as a ratio.

The ratio of the duration of the Set A ITI to the duration of the Set B ITI will enable us to adjust face-readings of one set to the other if necessary (if an A ITIC and a B ITIC were both observing Event X while only an A ITIC was observing Event Y, and the A ITIC for Event X stopped working, the ratio of ITI durations can be used to adjust the time-stamp of the B ITIC observing Event X and that adjusted time-stamp can be used for determining the When? of Event X), but, regardless, as long as ITICs from either Set A or Set B--but not both for the same events--are used for the measurement of time, then When? can be determined and simultaneity/non-simultaneity can be established.

When ITICs are placed equidistant and close enough to events so the problem of the time needed for the travel of light for the use of light for obtaining information from the events is reduced if not eliminated, then cameras aboard the ITICs, ITIC-Cams, can photograph an event and time-stamp the photographs, and those photographs can be sent to a central office wherein the time-stamps can be examined to determine When? and simultaneity/non-simultaneity, and how many ITIs were measured between events that are time-stamped as non-simultaneous.

Notice that if we were able to do all this that the Where? is not important--the When? is what we are after.

If we use light for the transmission of information from ITIC-Cams, then we would simply have to remember that if the distances of events from us are not equidistant or if the light transmitting the information undergoes changes of velocity due to changes of gravity or passage through mediums which retard the speed of light transmission, that the speed of light is not important because we ARE NOT interested in when the light-information arrives but we ARE interested ONLY in what the information from the ITIC-Cam information contains--the time-stamps of the events were are observing for which we are determining When? and therefore simultaneity/non-simultaneity of the events.

From a Timepoint of Origin, T0, when ITIs/ITICs are used for the measurement of time, the continuum of time is thus:

Past Infinity <- ... <- T-2 <- T-1 <- T0 <- T+1 -> T+2 -> ... -> Infinity Future

From the continuum of time we see that time is infinite in measurement, i.e., there is no limit to the measurement of time into the past nor into the future.

NOTE: Infinity = A condition of having no mathematical or physical limitations, and, therefore, is not a number (what number would it be if it were a number?)

Thus time has had no beginning and will have no ending--it is infinite in duration, it is independent of physics, of matter/energy, and it is independent of space, the volume/place/etc. in which time and physics exist.

Thus, time was not created in a Big Bang, nor will it be destroyed in a Big Crunch.

Einstein stated on page 99 of his book, Relativity, that he used VTIs/VTICs for his definition of time in his development of Special Relativity (SR) and General Relativity (GR).

With VTIs/VTICs we get time-dilation caused changes of velocity/gravity.

A spaceship’s VTIC will show a lower face-reading/time-measurement when returned to Earth and placed next to a sister Earth-bound VTIC and thus will show the illusion of time-dilation.

With ITIs/ITICs we get universal time and no time-dilation caused by changes of velocity/gravity because the ITICs are adjusted for sensed changes of velocity/gravity.

A spaceship’s ITIC will show an identical face-reading/time-measurement when returned to Earth and placed next to a sister Earth-bound ITIC and thus will not show the illusion of time-dilation but, instead, will show the reality of universal time.

Summary: Time is the use of TIs for the measurement of the occurrences of events in sequences of events.

The concept of time is used to answer the question of When? and not necessarily the question of Where?

Simultaneity and non-simultaneity are relevant to When? and not to Where?

When VTIs are used in VTICs which are subjected to changes of velocity/gravity, the face-readings will differ from similar VTICs which are not accelerated nor placed into a denser/less denser gravitational field, and the illusion of time-dilation occurs.

When ITIs are used in ITICs which are subjected to changes of velocity/gravity, the face-readings will not differ from similar ITICs which are not accelerated nor placed into a denser/less denser gravitational field, and the illusion of time-dilation will not occur, and universal time will occur.

The Continuum of Time:

Past Infinity <- ... <- T-2 <- T-1 <- T0 <- T+1 -> T+2 -> ... -> Infinity Future

Time is infinite (without mathematical or physical limitations) in duration and independent of space and physics (matter/energy).

sophie

Bob K :
That is a website for Bob K's definition of time.

OK, which aspect of reality is this based on? Occurance of events in sequences of events. which seems to be little events in big events.


I guess timepoint means a specific time-interval. You are measuring time intervals - TI's and accumulating them I suppose.

I always thought a second never varied. There are not motion sensing, but occur because of the sense of motion.


An ITI clock is motion sensing and self-adjusting, possibly synchronised from similar clocks, which can be adjusted for changes due to velocity & gravity. BUT if it is invariable why the need to adjust because of velocity and gravity? You cannot have something invariable then change it. The errors occuring in change may compound the problem.


More on my next port.

sophie

Bob K :
Now we are at simultaneity across the universe.

Now we have two invariable time intervals. Which invariable time interval is used to correlate the other two. This lacks basic physics. A specific TI choosen for an ITI reeks of subjectivity and not objectivity as you may claim ITI actually represents. This renders your position untenable.

More on my next post.

sophie

Bob K :

This cannot follow from two invariable arbitrarily choosen time intervals.


This is the continuum of time intervals. Now you are sensing motion. What is used to measure this motion and how does this information reach the ITI motion sensor.


This is a mathematical continuum, you have no mathematics like a proof by induction which will entail the mapping between TI's & ITI's to a mathematical scale is valid.

More on my next post.