Freethought & Rationalism Archive

dangin · 03-31-2003, 07:09 AM

Enlightened Selfishness. I'm only looking out for me, but I'm enlightened, which instructs me that helping others usually helps me, and hurting others usually hurts me.

Loren Pechtel · 03-31-2003, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by copernicus
For me, a large part of it is based on empathy--the Golden Rule.

Except the Golden Rule is stated backwards.

It *SHOULD* be "Don't do onto others as you don't want others to do onto you."

The standard stating doesn't take into consideration the fact that people's tastes differ. Should a good masochist go around hurting people?

ybnormal · 03-31-2003, 02:28 PM

What is the basis of your moral code?

A most honorable and principled set of parents is the basis of my moral code. Anything and everything added to or subtracted from that base has been insignificant.

Sarpedon · 03-31-2003, 04:48 PM

1. All people are equal
2. All people may choose
3. Among things of similar value, the greater number is to be preferred over the lesser (unless such things are considered to be negative, then the reverse is true)
4. Because things have different values, a hierarchy or ranking of value is needed.
A. People's lives
B. People's rights
C. People's material interests
D. People's sensibilities
E. Non-human animals
F. Inanimate objects, ideas.
5. #4 can only be violated in reference to the self.
6. Whether a person is considered to be an individual or part of a group with regard to #3 depends on whether they are an active participant (individual) or passive participant (group).
7. Only that which harms another person can be considered wrong.
8. Punishment is only appropriate on the same level (according to #4) or one level below. (E and F excluded)

These are the core principles of my ethical code. Yes I know that #1 and #2 are not scientifically correct. Ethics are the rules that govern one's interactions with society. These generalizations are good enough for me, and I think most people will agree with them. There are a total of 20 mores in my code, but I won't bore you with the twelve that make up "Set II" of my code, which are more personal in nature. If you really want to know, ask.

Sarpedon · 03-31-2003, 04:54 PM

1 and 2 are obviously the major and minor premises of my ethics, since the others can be seen to derive from them. #3 is also a premise, I suppose, though really it is only saying 2>1. (wow!) I do not claim at all that my ethics are original, by the way. The only thing I can claim as to not have copied from others(consciously, of course, often things we think are original are unconciously copied) is #4.

Feather · 03-31-2003, 05:30 PM

I live, roughly, by the following:

My needs and wants come before all else.

Therefore: if an action tends to satisfy a need and/or want I have, and doesn't appear likely to thwart probable future needs and wants, the action is "good."

So I guess you might say selfishness forms the basis for my moral code, such as it is at any given moment.

Feather · 03-31-2003, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Loren Pechtel
Except the Golden Rule is stated backwards.

It *SHOULD* be "Don't do onto others as you don't want others to do onto you."

The standard stating doesn't take into consideration the fact that people's tastes differ. Should a good masochist go around hurting people?

What about sadomasochists?

Guillaume · 03-31-2003, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DRFseven
As if everyone doesn't let emotions and reason determine their path, regardless of the consequences!

Preposterous ! Few, if any, are willing to accept the consequences of their passions, especially when people need to be hurt and laws need to be broken. Thru people, afraid of their own freedom and possibilities, build ridiculous �moral codes" to suppress their darker desires. Indeed, most are imprisoned in absurd and useless principles such as the �Golden Rule� , apparently for the sole purpose of denying themselves their own dreams and ambitions. Angry at their lack of power over their fate, they who refuse to be strong then hates those have the courage to live true to themselves, those who have the power to forge their own destiny.

As for myself, I have nothing but respect and admiration for heroes such as Stalin, Hitler and Saddam. Born as ordinary men, they were able to take in charge their own life and elevate themselves to the rank of gods. May we forever cherish their memory, they who showed us how incredibly great and noble humans can be !

DRFseven · 04-01-2003, 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Guillaume
Preposterous ! Few, if any, are willing to accept the consequences of their passions, especially when people need to be hurt and laws need to be broken. Thru people, afraid of their own freedom and possibilities, build ridiculous �moral codes" to suppress their darker desires. Indeed, most are imprisoned in absurd and useless principles such as the �Golden Rule� , apparently for the sole purpose of denying themselves their own dreams and ambitions. Angry at their lack of power over their fate, they who refuse to be strong then hates those have the courage to live true to themselves, those who have the power to forge their own destiny.

You don't understand that there is a mechanism by which we think (a system of memory retrieval) and the only option available to us is through reasoning, which is intricately connected with emotion via the limbic system. Emotion and reason are inseparable.

Quote:

As for myself, I have nothing but respect and admiration for heroes such as Stalin, Hitler and Saddam. Born as ordinary men, they were able to take in charge their own life and elevate themselves to the rank of gods. May we forever cherish their memory, they who showed us how incredibly great and noble humans can be !

We hates it, don't we, Precious?

Pyrrho · 04-01-2003, 10:14 AM

http://ibiblio.org/gutenberg/etext03/nqpmr10.txt

But to give you an interesting sampling (since I know full well that most people do not like reading very much):

Quote:

Whatever contradiction may vulgarly be supposed between the SELFISH and SOCIAL sentiments or dispositions, they are really no more opposite than selfish and ambitious, selfish and revengeful, selfish and vain. It is requisite that there be an original propensity of some kind, in order to be a basis to self-love, by giving a relish to the objects of its pursuit; and none more fit for this purpose than benevolence or humanity. The goods of fortune are spent in one gratification or another: the miser who accumulates his annual income, and lends it out at interest, has really spent it in the gratification of his avarice. And it would be difficult to show why a man is more a loser by a generous action, than by any other method of expense; since the utmost which he can attain by the most elaborate selfishness, is the indulgence of some affection.

Now if life, without passion, must be altogether insipid and tiresome; let a man suppose that he has full power of modelling his own disposition, and let him deliberate what appetite or desire he would choose for the foundation of his happiness and enjoyment. Every affection, he would observe, when gratified by success, gives a satisfaction proportioned to its force and violence; but besides this advantage, common to all, the immediate feeling of benevolence and friendship, humanity and kindness, is sweet, smooth, tender, and agreeable, independent of all fortune and accidents. These virtues are besides attended with a pleasing consciousness or remembrance, and keep us in humour with ourselves as well as others; while we retain the agreeable reflection of having done our part towards mankind and society. And though all men show a jealousy of our success in the pursuits of avarice and ambition; yet are we almost sure of their good-will and good wishes, so long as we persevere in the paths of virtue, and employ ourselves in the execution of generous plans and purposes. What other passion is there where we shall find so many advantages united; an agreeable sentiment, a pleasing consciousness, a good reputation? But of these truths, we may observe, men are, of themselves, pretty much convinced; nor are they deficient in their duty to society, because they would not wish to be generous, friendly, and humane; but because they do not feel themselves such.

Treating vice with the greatest candour, and making it all possible concessions, we must acknowledge that there is not, in any instance, the smallest pretext for giving it the preference above virtue, with a view of self-interest; except, perhaps, in the case of justice, where a man, taking things in a certain light, may often seem to be a loser by his integrity. And though it is allowed that, without a regard to property, no society could subsist; yet according to the imperfect way in which human affairs are conducted, a sensible knave, in particular incidents, may think that an act of iniquity or infidelity will make a considerable addition to his fortune, without causing any considerable breach in the social union and confederacy. That HONESTY IS THE BEST POLICY, may be a good general rule, but is liable to many exceptions; and he, it may perhaps be thought, conducts himself with most wisdom, who observes the general rule, and takes advantage of all the exceptions.

I must confess that, if a man think that this reasoning much requires an answer, it would be a little difficult to find any which will to him appear satisfactory and convincing. If his heart rebel not against such pernicious maxims, if he feel no reluctance to the thoughts of villainy or baseness, he has indeed lost a considerable motive to virtue; and we may expect that this practice will be answerable to his speculation. But in all ingenuous natures, the antipathy to treachery and roguery is too strong to be counter-balanced by any views of profit or pecuniary advantage. Inward peace of mind, consciousness of integrity, a satisfactory review of our own conduct; these are circumstances, very requisite to happiness, and will be cherished and cultivated by every honest man, who feels the importance of them.

Such a one has, besides, the frequent satisfaction of seeing knaves, with all their pretended cunning and abilities, betrayed by their own maxims; and while they purpose to cheat with moderation and secrecy, a tempting incident occurs, nature is frail, and they give into the snare; whence they can never extricate themselves, without a total loss of reputation, and the forfeiture of all future trust and confidence with mankind.

But were they ever so secret and successful, the honest man, if he has any tincture of philosophy, or even common observation and reflection, will discover that they themselves are, in the end, the greatest dupes, and have sacrificed the invaluable enjoyment of a character, with themselves at least, for the acquisition of worthless toys and gewgaws. How little is requisite to supply the necessities of nature? And in a view to pleasure, what comparison between the unbought satisfaction of conversation, society, study, even health and the common beauties of nature, but above all the peaceful reflection on one's own conduct; what comparison, I say, between these and the feverish, empty amusements of luxury and expense? These natural pleasures, indeed, are really without price; both because they are below all price in their attainment, and above it in their enjoyment.

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03-31-2003, 07:09 AM	#11
dangin Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: The Middle, Kansas Posts: 2,637	Enlightened Selfishness. I'm only looking out for me, but I'm enlightened, which instructs me that helping others usually helps me, and hurting others usually hurts me.

03-31-2003, 02:28 PM	#13
ybnormal Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 430	What is the basis of your moral code? A most honorable and principled set of parents is the basis of my moral code. Anything and everything added to or subtracted from that base has been insignificant.

03-31-2003, 04:48 PM	#14
Sarpedon Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Minnesota, the least controversial state in the le Posts: 8,446	1. All people are equal 2. All people may choose 3. Among things of similar value, the greater number is to be preferred over the lesser (unless such things are considered to be negative, then the reverse is true) 4. Because things have different values, a hierarchy or ranking of value is needed. A. People's lives B. People's rights C. People's material interests D. People's sensibilities E. Non-human animals F. Inanimate objects, ideas. 5. #4 can only be violated in reference to the self. 6. Whether a person is considered to be an individual or part of a group with regard to #3 depends on whether they are an active participant (individual) or passive participant (group). 7. Only that which harms another person can be considered wrong. 8. Punishment is only appropriate on the same level (according to #4) or one level below. (E and F excluded) These are the core principles of my ethical code. Yes I know that #1 and #2 are not scientifically correct. Ethics are the rules that govern one's interactions with society. These generalizations are good enough for me, and I think most people will agree with them. There are a total of 20 mores in my code, but I won't bore you with the twelve that make up "Set II" of my code, which are more personal in nature. If you really want to know, ask.

03-31-2003, 04:54 PM	#15
Sarpedon Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Minnesota, the least controversial state in the le Posts: 8,446	1 and 2 are obviously the major and minor premises of my ethics, since the others can be seen to derive from them. #3 is also a premise, I suppose, though really it is only saying 2>1. (wow!) I do not claim at all that my ethics are original, by the way. The only thing I can claim as to not have copied from others(consciously, of course, often things we think are original are unconciously copied) is #4.

03-31-2003, 05:30 PM	#16
Feather Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Gainesville, FL Posts: 1,827	I live, roughly, by the following: My needs and wants come before all else. Therefore: if an action tends to satisfy a need and/or want I have, and doesn't appear likely to thwart probable future needs and wants, the action is "good." So I guess you might say selfishness forms the basis for my moral code, such as it is at any given moment.

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