svensky

Do I think so or for the purposes of discussion ?

Also the catholic one is a little less clear cut when you move to the grass roots level.

Jason

svensky

Perhaps not there, I let the protestant catholic issue alone becasue it is not as clear as the other 3 I mentioned.

Funnily enough though, the protestants dont differ all that much, except where certian elements of the church has discarded the bible completely.

Jason

hezekiah jones

I beg your pardon? What's the difference?

svensky

Big difference. The discussion is related to what I felt was a blatant use of a straw man to show division in christian circles by including groups that (with the exception of some completely apostate liberals) are only considered christian by those who are ignorant or just wish to score cheap points.

The catholic church is quite a different issue here compared to the JW's, mormons or CJCS.

What I persoanlly think isn't relevant to the discussion.

Jason

Jamie_L

Even if we take it to be true that most "Christian" denominations find the three groups mentioned to not be "Christian", I don't think that makes the article in general a strawman.

These groups were provided as part of a lengthy list, consisting mostly of groups I believe you do consider "Christian". Even if comparisions with Momrons, Xian Scientists, or JWs are poorly conceived, the other comparissons stand.

The article focuses on very specific belief comparissons: method for and nature of salvation. How many beliefs the listed denominations have in common is irrelevant to that question. Furthermore, as mentioned by the author, it seems that salvation is a primary focus of Christianity in general, so disagreements in how to define and acheive salvation seem like fundamental issues.

Lastly, if an outsider confuses some groups as being part of Christianity - especially when doing detailed research as this author appears to have done, to me this only serves to strengthen his point. Why is it so difficult for an outsider to determine what is true and what is false Christianity?

Jamie

svensky

I didn't think the other comparisons where really all that different. Again, it seemed an effort to make difference where there isn't really any real difference. The whole article seems like a cheap exercise in points scoring.

Presuming you are an athiest, do you get annoyed when you are lumped in with groups that are not athiest ? Do you think it is fair that wiccans and other neo pagans are all simply labelled satanist ? I presume you have no problem with this sort of thing ? If you do, please explain the difference between that and what the article is doing to christians ?

To be honest, I would expect the author to be able to discern the difference after doing some research not before. So did he simply do shoddy research or is this an exercise in points scoring?

Jason

Brian63

Minor point: It's spelled atheist.

Carry on.

Brian

Jamie_L

For the record: I am an atheist.

The article's point is that there are specific and important differences between denominations perceived as or claiming to be Christian. Even if most of the beliefs of these sects are almost the same, if they do not agree on how to be saved, that's a BIG problem. The whole point of Chritianity (as I understand it) is to do what God wants. This is difficult if what God wants is not clearly understood - which on the issue of salvation it clearly isn't.

And although it may seem trivial to you, I'd venture there are significant numbers among each denomination that would vehemently disagree. Their particular teachings on salvation are surely very important.

As for being "lumped in" with other groups, I think you are making an invalid analogy. Of all the religions in the world, clearly some are closely associated with Christianity and the Christian tradition, some are less so, and some are not. In this spectrum of religion, it seems quite reasonable to me for Mormons, Christian Scientists, and JWs to be considered Christian. The same would not be true for lumping satanists and wiccans together, or atheists and theistic groups. From a Christian perspective, we may all be heretics, but in the broad spectrum of beliefs, these groups are nowhere near similar enough to be considered together by any reasonable assessment.
Jamie

Doubting Thomas

Jason:

The 16 denominations I chose all "adhere" to the teachings of Christ in some manner. Furthermore, most dictionary definitions are similar to the above definition. Notice that most standard definitions make no reference to "what Christ is"; so, according to most definitions those 16 would qualify as "Christian".

Now I've heard the "they aren't true Christians" argument before. So, before I rehash that, please tell me the criteria for identifying a "true Christian".

While you're at it, could you also tell me how one is "saved" and where one goes when they are saved? Finally, is hell separation from God or is it torment? Also, how do you know this?

The 16 denominations I chose differ on the "divinity" of Christ, what the "Triune God" is, and how one is "saved"--not to mention many other things.

Believe me, if I had the time and patience I could have picked more denominations but this was hard enough and I think I made my point! I picked some of the major Protestant denominations, Orthodoxy, Catholicism, and a few fringe groups.

If you have a better way I'd be eager to hear it.

-T

[ March 04, 2002: Message edited by: Doubting Thomas ]</p>

Doubting Thomas

Pot, kettle, black.

What is considered a “Christian”?

Uh, again: what is a “Christian”?

Clear as mud.

Which Bible? The Catholic, Protestant, or Hebrew version? What about the Book of Mormon or the JW’s New World Translation? What about the writings of Mary Baker Eddy? Also, which standard do I apply: the “rule of faith” or literal interpretation? How do I know which one is “divinely” inspired when almost all of them claim “divine inspiration”!

OK Jason, let’s keep this simple:
1) What is a “Christian”?
2) What must I do to be saved?
3) As an adherent of another religion—or none at all—how do I determine which of the 16 denominations in that article got it right?

Should I follow the JW’s, Seventh Day Adventists, Catholicism, etc.?

In short: how is an outsider not familiar with “Christianity” (whatever that is) supposed to determine which system to follow so he/she is “saved”?

-T

[ March 04, 2002: Message edited by: Doubting Thomas ]</p>