Freethought & Rationalism Archive

HelenM · 02-08-2003, 06:38 AM

Btw, it's not an angry face...take another look at the choices above posts...

Helen

GunnerJ · 02-08-2003, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Beyelzu
Maybe I misunderstood the first part of your post. I dont understand the angry face however. I thought when you said that its a fair "assumption that people are not born believing anything," I thought that you were agreeing with that part of the post. When I reread your post this morning, I am still not sure what you meant by this statement. I was pointing out that people are born without godbelief and are thus atheists

is the post header equivalent of

BTW.

Atheism is not believing in god. If one cannot believe anything, then one certainly cannot believe in god, yes?

beyelzu · 02-08-2003, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by HelenM
Btw, it's not an angry face...take another look at the choices above posts...

Helen

Shit, I was thrown by the fact that its red, I just woke up so I am going to use my patented "I must have been tired when I made that post" excuse.

beyelzu · 02-08-2003, 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rimstalker
is the post header equivalent of BTW.

Atheism is not believing in god. If one cannot believe anything, then one certainly cannot believe in god, yes?

I agree obviously, but when I read your post last night, I wasnt really sure that you were making that distinction. again please excuse my stupidity and/or poor reading comprehension. so now I guess my first post in this thread should be, rimstalker great post. I agree 100%

Zadok001 · 02-08-2003, 07:57 AM

I adore this part:

"I don't believe in God because there is so much evil in the world." Many atheists consider the problem of evil an airtight proof that God does not exist. They often say something like: "I know there is no God because if He existed, He never would have let Hitler murder six million Jews."

A good approach to an argument like this is to say something to this effect: "Since you brought up this issue, the burden lies on you to prove that evil actually exists in the world."

That's wonderful! Atheists point out an inconsistancy in the Christian view of the world. (i.e., God is omnimax. Evil, as defined by said God, exists. A contradiction enlies, telling us that either Evil (as defined by God) or God himself does not exist.) This guy then wants us to take HALF of the assertion and integrate it into OUR world view, which has nothing to do with the issue at hand!

An atheist can take a stance that the world contains no evil, and STILL apply the PoE to the Christian worldview. This idiot seems to think otherwise.

Alonzo Fyfe · 02-08-2003, 08:43 AM

I find it interesting that I wrote and posted this document well before I encountered this thread. Yet, it almost appears as if my posting was written in direct response to the post being discussed here.

If any are interested:

Ethics Without God: A Personal Journey, Part I

-RRH- · 02-08-2003, 11:07 AM

Quote:

If the atheist persists and says there must be a better solution to the problem of evil, suggest a simple test. Give him about five minutes to formulate a solution to the problem of evil that (1) does not destroy human freedom, or (2) cause God to violate His nature (e.g., His attributes of absolute holiness, justice, and mercy) in some way. After five minutes, ask him what he came up with. Don't expect much of an answer.

I would spend those five minutes asking the theist to explain whether or not there is evil in heaven.

Theli · 02-08-2003, 01:43 PM

Quote:

He may even suggest that God could have created man in such a way that man would never sin, thus avoiding evil altogether. This idea can be countered by pointing out that such a scenario would mean that man is no longer man. He would no longer have the capacity to make choices. This scenario would require that God create robots who act only in programmed ways.

"Man is no longer man"?
As if a blueprint existed of man before god invented/created man. :banghead:

And about robots, I would engage this with my socks-example. This morning I had a choice of putting on my left sock first or my right sock first. Wich of these choices was the evil one?
His arguments seems very obsolete, they have been refuted time and time again.

Steven Carr · 02-08-2003, 03:06 PM

Rhodes :-
Give him about five minutes to formulate a solution to the problem of evil that (1) does not destroy human freedom, or (2) cause God to violate His nature (e.g., His attributes of absolute holiness, justice, and mercy) in some way. After five minutes, ask him what he came up with. Don't expect much of an answer.

----------------------------
Just off the top of my head, why is killing whole tribes of evil people not a perfectly good answer , quite consistent with not destroying human freedom, and being consistent with God's attributes of justice and mercy.

OK, in only 5 minutes, I might not be able to find Biblical references to complete my answer, but that is a mere detail.

After all, I'm only an atheist, and I can't be expected to remember where abouts in the Bible this answer of wholesale genocide as a response to evil was recommended.

So Rhodes is quite correct, atheists cannot come up in 5 minutes to the solution to the problem of evil that Christians have come up with.

Dr Rick · 02-08-2003, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Theli
His arguments seems very obsolete, they have been refuted time and time again.

No kidding; we know that many theists consider all athiests evil, but this knucklehead appears to have assumed that all atheists are stupid.

I seriously wonder if any adult, non-brain damaged, sober atheist could ever be swayed by this collection of fetid nonsense?

Rick

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

02-08-2003, 06:38 AM	#11
HelenM Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Ill Posts: 6,577	Btw, it's not an angry face...take another look at the choices above posts... Helen

02-08-2003, 07:57 AM	#15
Zadok001 Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Two Steps Ahead Posts: 1,124	I adore this part: "I don't believe in God because there is so much evil in the world." Many atheists consider the problem of evil an airtight proof that God does not exist. They often say something like: "I know there is no God because if He existed, He never would have let Hitler murder six million Jews." A good approach to an argument like this is to say something to this effect: "Since you brought up this issue, the burden lies on you to prove that evil actually exists in the world." That's wonderful! Atheists point out an inconsistancy in the Christian view of the world. (i.e., God is omnimax. Evil, as defined by said God, exists. A contradiction enlies, telling us that either Evil (as defined by God) or God himself does not exist.) This guy then wants us to take HALF of the assertion and integrate it into OUR world view, which has nothing to do with the issue at hand! An atheist can take a stance that the world contains no evil, and STILL apply the PoE to the Christian worldview. This idiot seems to think otherwise.

02-08-2003, 08:43 AM	#16
Alonzo Fyfe Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: 920B Milo Circle Lafayette, CO Posts: 3,515	I find it interesting that I wrote and posted this document well before I encountered this thread. Yet, it almost appears as if my posting was written in direct response to the post being discussed here. If any are interested: Ethics Without God: A Personal Journey, Part I

02-08-2003, 03:06 PM	#19
Steven Carr Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: England Posts: 5,629	Rhodes :- Give him about five minutes to formulate a solution to the problem of evil that (1) does not destroy human freedom, or (2) cause God to violate His nature (e.g., His attributes of absolute holiness, justice, and mercy) in some way. After five minutes, ask him what he came up with. Don't expect much of an answer. ---------------------------- Just off the top of my head, why is killing whole tribes of evil people not a perfectly good answer , quite consistent with not destroying human freedom, and being consistent with God's attributes of justice and mercy. OK, in only 5 minutes, I might not be able to find Biblical references to complete my answer, but that is a mere detail. After all, I'm only an atheist, and I can't be expected to remember where abouts in the Bible this answer of wholesale genocide as a response to evil was recommended. So Rhodes is quite correct, atheists cannot come up in 5 minutes to the solution to the problem of evil that Christians have come up with.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.