Freethought & Rationalism Archive

triplew00t · 07-23-2003, 03:15 PM

I think the lack of conversion tactics is mainly due to the idea that salvation can occur to noncatholics as well, through the grace of God and the Catholic Church. I would have to dig to find the paper, but the Pope stated such not long ago. He also said that we do not know who, if any, humans have ever been condemned to hell. I think the third world missions these days are also more of a humanitarian than a conversion effort. Many just convert after receiving help from the missionaries and seeing a new, alternate way of life to their old one. Inside the U.S. there is less of a way to offer this, except through hospitals and food banks, which the Catholics do. I think the idea is that here, we all have heard of the Catholic Church and if we want to become part of it, we would without proding. It is people in other countries who have never heard of it that the Church wants to introduce its religion to. And anyway, to them it is not so important. They do not damn everyone who is not their religion out of hand, like many Protestants do these days.

Its funny. The Catholic church, which was for centuries the conservative church, has become much more liberal as of late, and the Protestant churches have gone the opposite way for the most part.

-Nero

Opera Nut · 07-24-2003, 02:03 AM

In this week's Houston Press (our indy paper) there was a big article about Mel Gibson's dad.
He is a radical catholic who lievs here b/c some breakaway priest celebreates the Mass in Latin in his house.

Nowadays, it seems God has quit understanding Latin and now only understands the vernacular, which I find amusing.

And his friend who was quoted in the article, had the last name of Davignon. Oh, the irony!! You historicians will know the reference.

Rational BAC · 07-24-2003, 06:12 AM

"Sur le pont d'Avignon, on y danse on y danse. Sur le pont d'
Avignon, on y danse tout en rond."

godfry n. glad · 07-24-2003, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MollyMac
Your last post was unnecessarily insulting, Godfrey.

Well, MillyMuc, I guess we'll have to disagree, because I thought it entirely necessary.

Quote:

I admit I was not using your dictionary's definition of 'freethinker' in my post. I was not using any dictionary - I was using the term in the way that its two compenent words suggest i.e. to mean people who do not slavishly follow the teachings of their church but who make up their own mind about certain things (and at the risk of condemnation and derision by their religious brethren)

Yet, the term "freethinker" has a specific meaning in the English language and that meaning, when combined with the meaning of the term "Episcopalian" is exactly what I described it to be: an oxymoron.

If RatBAC does not slavishly follow the teachings of the Episcopalian Church, then he should not refer to himself as an Episcopalian. If he does not subscribe to Episcopalian doctrine and dogma, he is nothing but another confused non-sectarian rube taking up space in Episcopalian pews. Sitting in an Anglican Church does not an Anglican make. If he does subscribe to Anglican doctrine (and I think he's made it fairly clear that he subcribes to Christian dogma) then his use of the contradictory label marks him out as being duplicitous, disingenuous and/or ignorant. Note that he did not deny my claim that he's here as a proselytizer...and, he did not answer my direct questions, but was evasive throughout our exchange.

Also, "faith", upon which RatBAC bases his beliefs, is not rational, but irrational. "Faith" is to believe without evidence or, even in the face of contradictory evidence.

From every evidence I have, RatBAC has misrepresented himself. To what purpose? I suggest that he's here to proselytize. That's his message: "Hey, we Episcopalians aren't too bad, you oughta come on down and check it out." That's subtle proselytization.

If you want to lap it up, fine. But I'll call it as I see it.

Quote:

Sorry, but I have met too many Anglicans who are more liberal and tolerant than many atheists and who are the antithesis of fundamentalist xians. I could criticise them for cherry picking or I could applaud them for their common sense and reason (at least in some things). I prefer to consider the possible wider consequences of both criticising them and applauding them and, on balance, I prefer to do the latter and I'm certainly not going to object if they describe themselves as free thinking.

Y'know, I know many really decent Episcopalians, but they are intelligent enough to know that they subscribe to Christian doctrine and believe what they believe in faith...and they don't call themselves "atheists", which is what a "freethinker" is. They are tolerant, yes, but atheistic, no. Also, please note that as tolerant as some Anglicans are, the episcopate has, on many cases (such as the one you cited) acted to strike down many of the more tolerant initiatives brought to fore in the church. I'm actually quite surprised that Bishop Shelby Spong still holds his position of authority within the church...and...it's my understanding that fellow members of the episcopate have initiated proceedings to have him censured. If you applaud anyone, applaud those who have the courage to call a fraud a fraud and dispense with the "Episcopalian" label that clearly states that they believe in physical impossibilities and pie in the sky when they die.

Quote:

On your question about UUs applying for training. I haven't had such an applicant and I've no idea if they already have mastery of such. I expect applicants to declare, in no uncertain terms, that they are atheists with a commitment to secular humanist values and I would refuse a training place to anyone who didn't.

That shouldn't be too hard for most UU types.

Just out of curiosity, what if somebody presented themselves as an "atheist Anglican"? Would you take them at their word?

godfry

MollyMac · 07-24-2003, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Just out of curiosity, what if somebody presented themselves as an "atheist Anglican"? Would you take them at their word?

frogdy,

Everyone who applies is screened carefully and at some length and somebody calling themselves an atheist Anglican would be expected to come up with a very good reason for it.

Milly

godfry n. glad · 07-24-2003, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MollyMac
frogdy,

Everyone who applies is screened carefully and at some length and somebody calling themselves an atheist Anglican would be expected to come up with a very good reason for it.

Milly

LOL...

No doubt.

frygod

Rational BAC · 07-24-2003, 07:17 PM

Well godfry--

-(finally got both the spelling and the case right)

I am in no way any kind of proselitiser. I think everyone should believe whatever makes them comfortable. Obviously what I believe makes you uncomfortable------and for that I am sorry.

I think that you are talking about the ideal of Episcopalianism. Unfortunately, like most ideals, that is unreachable.

The reality of the Episcopal church is that there are very many like myself who consider themselves excellent Episcopalians, but who still question just about every damned thing-------and can question anything metaphysical better than any other sect in the world.

Come on now, --------the one nice thing that good old Henry the VIII "the horny" did for religion was to bring about generation upon generation upon generation of questioning and very skeptical Christians. And that is the BEST thing that the Episcopal (or Anglican if you will) church has ever had going for it and still today has going for it.

There is no way a "high" Episcopalian could intellectually become a Southern Baptist. A "high" Episcopalian could become an agnostic or possibly even an atheist, but we cannot tolerate any real threatening type of mind control. Forget the damned creeds, we are for the most part very skeptical individuals and find our own individual way. Thank God for Henry VIII for making us that way.

And the Episcopal church is the finest place anywhere to be able to do that sort of eternally questioning thing. And where the members can get away with it. Like nowhere else.

Live with it. That is the REALITY of the Episcopal Church, like it or not.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

This part is a bit of a disclaimer. ----

--- There are "High" and "Low" Episcopal churches. (aint it wonnerful how that church can morph to suit the immediate populace?)----------I have been to some Episcopal churches in the "Bible belt" out in the boonies, where, if it were not for the absence of a red carpet and of course the presence of a weekly Eucharist, I could have swore I was sitting smack dab in the middle of a BAPTIST church. --------Hell, fire and damnation surrounding me. --------Quaking in my boots from the sermon.

Hey --------as an Episcopalian you can pretty much believe any damned thing you want to----------given some very basic core stuff.

Rational BAC · 07-24-2003, 07:46 PM

After posting the previous, very detailed apology for the Episcopal Church, I realized again that we are supposed to be talking about THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

Again -------sorry about that.

Hey godfry---why don't we give up on this thread. It just aint fittin' you know.

godfry n. glad · 07-25-2003, 08:39 AM

Y'know... Rational BAC, I misjudged you.

I extend my apologies. I took the time to read some of your posts on other threads in these fora. After that, I decided that you are probably NOT some kind of undercover proselytizer for the Episcopalian Church....I'm pretty sure of that now.

I also doubt that the Episcopal Church would claim you and I suspect that they'd be alarmed that you were here representing yourself as an Episcopalian.

You're not what I thought at all....Instead, you're merely an ordinary, garden variety religious wacko nutcase....who has delusions of being an Episcopalian.

Sorry about that initial misidentification. No hard feelings, eh?

godfry

Hey... Catholics... Episcopalians... What's the diff?

Rational BAC · 07-26-2003, 08:40 AM

No hard feelings godfry-------

Of course, being the egotist I am, what is important is whether I claim the Episcopal Church. Whether they claim me or not is unimportant and irrelevant.

And I claim the Episcopal Church.-------as far as being the closest sect to what I do believe. You are just going to have to live with that. And I guess the Episcopal Church will have to live with it too.

I was baptized, and confirmed in the Episcopal Church. They are pretty much stuck with me.

Too bad, tough luck, and sorry 'bout that.

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07-23-2003, 03:15 PM	#41
triplew00t Regular Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 141	I think the lack of conversion tactics is mainly due to the idea that salvation can occur to noncatholics as well, through the grace of God and the Catholic Church. I would have to dig to find the paper, but the Pope stated such not long ago. He also said that we do not know who, if any, humans have ever been condemned to hell. I think the third world missions these days are also more of a humanitarian than a conversion effort. Many just convert after receiving help from the missionaries and seeing a new, alternate way of life to their old one. Inside the U.S. there is less of a way to offer this, except through hospitals and food banks, which the Catholics do. I think the idea is that here, we all have heard of the Catholic Church and if we want to become part of it, we would without proding. It is people in other countries who have never heard of it that the Church wants to introduce its religion to. And anyway, to them it is not so important. They do not damn everyone who is not their religion out of hand, like many Protestants do these days. Its funny. The Catholic church, which was for centuries the conservative church, has become much more liberal as of late, and the Protestant churches have gone the opposite way for the most part. -Nero

07-24-2003, 02:03 AM	#42
Opera Nut Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Houston TX Posts: 1,671	In this week's Houston Press (our indy paper) there was a big article about Mel Gibson's dad. He is a radical catholic who lievs here b/c some breakaway priest celebreates the Mass in Latin in his house. Nowadays, it seems God has quit understanding Latin and now only understands the vernacular, which I find amusing. And his friend who was quoted in the article, had the last name of Davignon. Oh, the irony!! You historicians will know the reference.

07-24-2003, 06:12 AM	#43
Rational BAC Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Tampa Bay area Posts: 3,471	"Sur le pont d'Avignon, on y danse on y danse. Sur le pont d' Avignon, on y danse tout en rond."

07-24-2003, 07:17 PM	#47
Rational BAC Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Tampa Bay area Posts: 3,471	Well godfry-- -(finally got both the spelling and the case right) I am in no way any kind of proselitiser. I think everyone should believe whatever makes them comfortable. Obviously what I believe makes you uncomfortable------and for that I am sorry. I think that you are talking about the ideal of Episcopalianism. Unfortunately, like most ideals, that is unreachable. The reality of the Episcopal church is that there are very many like myself who consider themselves excellent Episcopalians, but who still question just about every damned thing-------and can question anything metaphysical better than any other sect in the world. Come on now, --------the one nice thing that good old Henry the VIII "the horny" did for religion was to bring about generation upon generation upon generation of questioning and very skeptical Christians. And that is the BEST thing that the Episcopal (or Anglican if you will) church has ever had going for it and still today has going for it. There is no way a "high" Episcopalian could intellectually become a Southern Baptist. A "high" Episcopalian could become an agnostic or possibly even an atheist, but we cannot tolerate any real threatening type of mind control. Forget the damned creeds, we are for the most part very skeptical individuals and find our own individual way. Thank God for Henry VIII for making us that way. And the Episcopal church is the finest place anywhere to be able to do that sort of eternally questioning thing. And where the members can get away with it. Like nowhere else. Live with it. That is the REALITY of the Episcopal Church, like it or not. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ This part is a bit of a disclaimer. ---- --- There are "High" and "Low" Episcopal churches. (aint it wonnerful how that church can morph to suit the immediate populace?)----------I have been to some Episcopal churches in the "Bible belt" out in the boonies, where, if it were not for the absence of a red carpet and of course the presence of a weekly Eucharist, I could have swore I was sitting smack dab in the middle of a BAPTIST church. --------Hell, fire and damnation surrounding me. --------Quaking in my boots from the sermon. Hey --------as an Episcopalian you can pretty much believe any damned thing you want to----------given some very basic core stuff.

07-24-2003, 07:46 PM	#48
Rational BAC Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Tampa Bay area Posts: 3,471	After posting the previous, very detailed apology for the Episcopal Church, I realized again that we are supposed to be talking about THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. Again -------sorry about that. Hey godfry---why don't we give up on this thread. It just aint fittin' you know.

07-25-2003, 08:39 AM	#49
godfry n. glad Banned Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: portland, oregon, usa Posts: 1,190	Y'know... Rational BAC, I misjudged you. I extend my apologies. I took the time to read some of your posts on other threads in these fora. After that, I decided that you are probably NOT some kind of undercover proselytizer for the Episcopalian Church....I'm pretty sure of that now. I also doubt that the Episcopal Church would claim you and I suspect that they'd be alarmed that you were here representing yourself as an Episcopalian. You're not what I thought at all....Instead, you're merely an ordinary, garden variety religious wacko nutcase....who has delusions of being an Episcopalian. Sorry about that initial misidentification. No hard feelings, eh? godfry Hey... Catholics... Episcopalians... What's the diff?

07-26-2003, 08:40 AM	#50
Rational BAC Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Tampa Bay area Posts: 3,471	No hard feelings godfry------- Of course, being the egotist I am, what is important is whether I claim the Episcopal Church. Whether they claim me or not is unimportant and irrelevant. And I claim the Episcopal Church.-------as far as being the closest sect to what I do believe. You are just going to have to live with that. And I guess the Episcopal Church will have to live with it too. I was baptized, and confirmed in the Episcopal Church. They are pretty much stuck with me. Too bad, tough luck, and sorry 'bout that.

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