Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Darth Dane · 05-13-2003, 03:50 AM

You've heard about Patch Adams right?

Does his method of laughter help in the speedy process of recovery?
It's been documented afaik that there is a connection between laughter and a good positive mood, and the healing process.

Could prayer, if fullfilling those criteria, do teh same as pure laughter?

DD - Love Spliff

Vinnie · 05-13-2003, 05:41 AM

Those alleged prayer studies are utterly bankrupt (scientific and theologically). I discussed them here (part four of a five part series on prayer):

http://www.acfaith.com/prayerstudy.html

You can find access to most of the pdf's of the studies on my site and there is one at the end where the results went against the effectiveness of remote, intercessory prayer.

Lets just look at one issue in simplified form:

10 people are in the hospital with a similar problem.

5 people are called to pray for a fast recovery of the same 5 of these 10 patients.

Neither the people being prayed for or the staff know about it. This kills placebo and such.

Supposing that there was a 60% rate of fast recovery for the prayed for group (3 of 5) and a 40% rate for the non-prayed for group can we conclude the prayer worked?

The problem must further get complicated. Each hospitalized patient undoubtedly had people prying for them outside the prayer group and some people pray in general for the whole world. Statistically, it can be assumed that each patient generally had the same number of people praying for them before the prayer group was added (it would work out in the long run).

So lets say each patient has X people praying for them.

Now the patients in the control group had X + 0 people praying for them.

The patients in the prayer group had X + 5 patients praying or them.

Now we just quote Gasry Posner and rest the case:

Quote:

That God is conditioned in a Pavlovian manner to automatically respond to the side with the greater number of troops, even though the assigned intercessors had no emotional ties to their patients, and even though the IP patients were otherwise no more worthy of healing as a group than were the controls? Does God not know that the side with fewer troops is in just as much need of assistance? Where is the evidence of his omniscience and compassion?"

The theological problems with these prayer studies are sufficient to dismiss them as nonsense. That is why I stated that "I honestly have trouble seeing how serious apologists can actually promote these studies as evidence in favor of the efficacy of intercessory prayer!"

As far as Byrd's study goes, I guess stopping the Holocaust wasn't as high on God's to do list as reducing antibiotic use and ventilating patients in the CCU

Vinnie

Vinnie · 05-13-2003, 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Goliath
Here's a major problem with prayer studies that I've never seen any xian address:

Let's say you're trying to write up a prayer study on...oh, say, the supposed effects of prayer on cancer patients. Since you are positing a supernatural cause for the remission of the cancer (ie that the prayer caused a god to remove the cancer), you must also control for every other supernatural explanation (both conceivable and inconceivable). For example, you have to control against the following:

1. The hypothesis that Ra, the sun god cured the cancer.

2. The hypothesis that The Great Buggerdby danced into the room, and--using his magical powers--vigorously slapped his belly and simultaneously belched, causing magic to remove the cancer.

and many, many, many more (you probably get the idea).

Sincerely,

Goliath

There can only be one supreme being of whom none greater can be thought. Objection 1 dismissed.

You can also include "aliens" with advanced technology which appears to be number two. If it is restricted to God or aliens (Great Buggerdby) I doubt many Christians will have a problem with that.

Vinnie

gravitybow · 05-13-2003, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Goliath
Here's a major problem with prayer studies that I've never seen any xian address:

Let's say you're trying to write up a prayer study on...oh, say, the supposed effects of prayer on cancer patients. Since you are positing a supernatural cause for the remission of the cancer (ie that the prayer caused a god to remove the cancer), you must also control for every other supernatural explanation (both conceivable and inconceivable). For example, you have to control against the following:

1. The hypothesis that Ra, the sun god cured the cancer.

Quote:

Vinnie responds
There can only be one supreme being of whom none greater can be thought. Objection 1 dismissed.

Hold on, cowboy. If Ra is the "one supreme being of whom none greater can be thought," and Jehovah doesn't exist, then objection 1 cannot be dismissed.

And when you consider polytheistic religions, the fact that there may be "one supreme being of whom none greater can be thought" does not address weather said being is the one responsible for healing. In Greek mythology, Zeus is top dog, supreme being. Yet Asclepius, son of Apollo, was known as the god of healing and medicine. His symbol was a snake on a staff, reminiscent of today's symbol for medicine. And what about Hinduism? Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva may form the top trinity, but Surya the benevolent sun god is responsible for healing sickness.

Perhaps the solution is to hire on adherents of different faiths to pray earnestly to their gods not to intervene in healing so that Jehovah has a crack at showing his stuff without interference.

Sci_Fidelity · 05-13-2003, 09:42 AM

Posted by Tercel:

Quote:

Numerous prayer studies have already been done along the lines you suggest.
Metacrock has several pages of his website outlining them here. According to one source he quotes, 57% of such studies have found prayer to have statistically significant positive effects.

So 57% of patients grew new limbs? I think you may have missed the whole point of the OP.

Goliath · 05-13-2003, 11:48 AM

Vinnie,

Quote:

There can only be one supreme being of whom none greater can be thought.

Who said anything about supreme beings? Who said anything about Ra being a supreme being?

Edited to say: What do you mean by "greater?" Could you please rigorously define this relation that you (and many other xians) toss about with total abandon? And how do you know that, amongst the set of all beings, there is a maximal element under this "greater" relation? Is this relation even an ordering? Is it a partial ordering? A linear ordering? A well-ordering? Please, humor me and explain.

Quote:

Objection 1 dismissed.

Wrong. Objection 1 (and billions upon billions of others like it) destroy any prayer study that has ever been written.

Quote:

You can also include "aliens" with advanced technology which appears to be number two.

Incorrect. The "Great Buggerdby" is a magical being. So, you could call him an alien if you'd like, but he cures people via magic, not technology.

Sincerely,

Goliath

PS Hey, at least your response was better than your last response to me. Since when did the words "You're an idiot" constitute a rebuttal?

Shake · 05-13-2003, 01:19 PM

Well, as I said on a similar thread: most people in this country are theists of some flavor, and as such, they might expect to be prayed for in case of some terrible injury or illness. Those who really believe in the "power" of prayer would probably be in better spirits knowing that they're being prayed for. And there does seem to be something to a person's attitude and there ability to get better quickly. So, this sort of thing may be at the very least biased to show that prayer helps.

Vinnie · 05-13-2003, 07:26 PM

Goliath writes:

Quote:

The "Great Buggerdby" is a magical being. So, you could call him an alien if you'd like, but he cures people via magic, not technology.

There is no such thing as magic. If you think otherwise that is your problem.

Goliath Write:

Quote:

Since when did the words "You're an idiot" constitute a rebuttal?

Since I started talking to one? Anyways, thank you for not private messaging me again after my request.

Goliath writes:

Quote:

Wrong. Objection 1 (and billions upon billions of others like it) destroy any prayer study that has ever been written.

Irrelevant material. I never defended prayer studies. I critiqued them. See above.

gravitybow writes

Quote:

Hold on, cowboy. If Ra is the "one supreme being of whom none greater can be thought," and Jehovah doesn't exist, then objection 1 cannot be dismissed.

If you all a banana a goobadooba or a blabba its still the same thing. Whether named Ra or Jehova, there can only be one supreme being. Different descriptions of God are not novel by any means so I'm not sure what you are trying to get at?

gravitybow

Quote:

And when you consider polytheistic religions, the fact that there may be "one supreme being of whom none greater can be thought" does not address weather said being is the one responsible for healing. In Greek mythology, Zeus is top dog, supreme being. Yet Asclepius, son of Apollo, was known as the god of healing and medicine. His symbol was a snake on a staff, reminiscent of today's symbol for medicine. And what about Hinduism? Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva may form the top trinity, but Surya the benevolent sun god is responsible for healing sickness.

Occams razor. Why multiply entities without good reason?

Objection 1 is bogus. There are better objections out there than this one.

Vinnie

Sabine Grant · 05-13-2003, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sci_Fidelity
Yes, but I was trying to pick something that would be immune to interpretation. It wouldn't have to be limb regeneration- there are numerous diseases (ALS comes to mind) that would suffice.

My real point (and question) is why would this not be a valid study? I would like to know if theists, esp. xians, would consider this a valid test of the healing power of prayer, and if not, why not.

Salut Sci-Fidelity... that is if the power of prayer were to reside in the belief that anything that will be asked will be done according to the will of the petitionner. Some christians such as myself do not view prayer as a petition that must be honored by God automaticaly.
I think the concept that prayer heals means prayer works is a bit simplistic....I am not sure that would be the criteria I would choose to demonstrate the power of prayer as a christian.

Testing the spontaneous growth of limbs or recovery from ALS or HIV would not necessarly constitute an evidence in my mind that God is involved or not involved with that recovery process as I do not believe that my will thru prayer has to be honored by God. As a petitioner, I express my desire thru prayer. However, the recipient has the final word.

Goliath · 05-13-2003, 11:40 PM

Vinnie,

Quote:

There is no such thing as magic.

Unproven assertion (and a rather odd assertion for a xian to be making).

Quote:

Since I started talking to one?

Do your arguments ever have substance, or is name-calling the only defense that you know of?

Quote:

Irrelevant material. I never defended prayer studies. I critiqued them. See above.

Not in any way, shape, or form irrelevant. Your dismissal of my objection was refuted. My objections stand unrefuted.

By the way, you still haven't defined what you mean by "greater" (as used in "greatest being"). Here are my questions in case you missed them:

Quote:

What do you mean by "greater?" Could you please rigorously define this relation that you (and many other xians) toss about with total abandon? And how do you know that, amongst the set of all beings, there is a maximal element under this "greater" relation? Is this relation even an ordering? Is it a partial ordering? A linear ordering? A well-ordering? Please, humor me and explain.

Sincerely,

Goliath

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

05-13-2003, 03:50 AM	#11
Darth Dane Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Required Posts: 2,349	You've heard about Patch Adams right? Does his method of laughter help in the speedy process of recovery? It's been documented afaik that there is a connection between laughter and a good positive mood, and the healing process. Could prayer, if fullfilling those criteria, do teh same as pure laughter? DD - Love Spliff

05-13-2003, 01:19 PM	#17
Shake Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Folding@Home in upstate NY Posts: 14,394	Well, as I said on a similar thread: most people in this country are theists of some flavor, and as such, they might expect to be prayed for in case of some terrible injury or illness. Those who really believe in the "power" of prayer would probably be in better spirits knowing that they're being prayed for. And there does seem to be something to a person's attitude and there ability to get better quickly. So, this sort of thing may be at the very least biased to show that prayer helps.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.