Zentraedi

You read the bible and took it word for word too? Read between the lines...

[ November 13, 2002: Message edited by: Zentraedi ]</p>

Hawkingfan

No we didn't. Socialable codes came from nature. Monkeys and apes live by the codes of nature. They do not have mettings where they discuss HOW to be "socialable".

Hawkingfan

An atheist's "morality" is not dependant on anything but nature. There are no doctrines stating what a gorillas morals should be like. But you don't see them running around in chaos. There is one thing you don't seem to understand about the mind of atheists--the concepts of "goodness" and "evil" and "morals" do not exist. Our behavior is controlled by our own instincts and is fashioned by how others may react to it.

Hawkingfan

That is where we must agree to disagree. Atheists generally like how animals act.

Hawkingfan

[quote]Originally posted by Zentraedi:Your not on your deathbed. You may be content with death, but fear will never be relinquished.[QUOTE]

Please speak for yourself. I am not afraid of anything, thanks. Living in fear leads to superstitions and misguided energy. I've got better things to do.

[QUOTE]I think more christians are worried about purpose to what they are doing or saying at this very moment rather than where they are going. Its fear of what they do or say not being meaningful.Please do not put words in my mouth. I don't tell myself "Everything is going to be ok!!!" I am not "positive" or "negative" about the way that I look at the world. I am realistic! I put my faith in MYSELF. Faith is not needed in anything else. Reason has gotten me where I am today. It's going to serve me MUCH better than praying to a big man who lives in the clouds (who really isn't even there!) or fooling myself with other superstitions when I'm "lost".

Jack the Bodiless

Gods have a tendency to agree with the moral stance of their creators and worshippers. Maybe modern Christians believe in a god who is ideologically opposed to rape, but apparently the authors of the Bible did not.

...So it seems pointless to argue that morals are derived from religion. Religion is, at best, a storage medium for morals of secular origin, and a means of enforcing these assimilated morals on the credulous.

"Rape is inherently wrong" is an example of an imperfectly-assimilated moral code. If more books were still being added to the Bible, then I expect that a specific condemnation of rape would now be added. This is clear from the wishful thinking of modern Christians who assume that such a verse must exist, but "can't find it".

Zentraedi

Are you trying to say we live by the codes of nature?

Hawkingfan

What I'm saying is that you've had it backwards from the start. Religion and myths and moral codes and the lessons of right and wrong did NOT come before the first societies on earth were created. A sociable society came FIRST. Societies came about by natural processes.
Myths came later into society and were created to teach people "morals" of the society, or to try and explain where they came from, or to explain things in science (especially Greek and Roman myths). But as you know(I hope), they are only stories and are NOT fact.
There were plenty of non-theist codes of law prior to Christianity. The Code of Hammurabi existed well before Christ was even a warm spot on god's hand.

Zentraedi

Please speak for yourself. I am not afraid of anything, thanks. Living in fear leads to superstitions and misguided energy. I've got better things to do.

Zentraedi: I think your full of shit

Everybody is concerned about purpose. Not just christians. But you are wrong when you say "rather than where they are going". Ever been witnessed to? They won't shut up about it. Atheists do not have a "fear" about being meaningful. We just do it. If it's meaningful, it's meaningful. If it's not, then it's not.

Zentraedi: Speak for yourself. The rest of what you said is conjecture.

Zentraedi:Is Atheism productive?

I have led a productive life so far, yes.

Zentraedi:I mean as a whole isolated by itself from others beliefs.

SO WHAT?

Zentraedi: So get a clue. You didn't answer the question. I said atheism, not mr.atheist(hawkingfan).

Zentraedi:My belief is that no man/woman can function without some sort reassurance from a foreign intelligence, be it imaginary or not.

I have yet to lose any of my "functions".

Zentraedi: Foreign I mean as anyone other than yourself.

That's nice. But your belief is still incorrect.

Zentraedi: How so? Oh thats right you don't need anyone or anything. You are curious about nothing, and you have no fear. Go ahead and live in your imaginary world.

Its part of human nature to rely upon others.

Example:
Have you seen Tom Hanks in 'Cast Away'. What did he do when he was alone? He created a friend out of thin air. A vollyball named wilson.

Zentraedi:What does an atheist do when the reassurance is not present in a physical manner?

I don't know. Turn to reason? Logic? Get over it?

Zentraedi: How are you going to tell yourself everything is going to be ok, when you don't think your going to be. You may not put faith in god, but you DO put faith in other human beings. Many times in your life its no one but you, and faith is needed in someone other than yourself. Reason will get you no where when its telling you you've lost.[/QB]

Please do not put words in my mouth. I don't tell myself "Everything is going to be ok!!!" I am not "positive" or "negative" about the way that I look at the world. I am realistic! I put my faith in MYSELF. Faith is not needed in anything else. Reason has gotten me where I am today. It's going to serve me MUCH better than praying to a big man who lives in the clouds (who really isn't even there!) or fooling myself with other superstitions when I'm "lost".

Zentraedi:When you live in a society, you put faith in countless others. Did you do every scientific experiment that you believe in? Did you go to every location in the world that is said to exist? Do you put faith in yourself if you are intoxicated? I could go on and on about how much faith you have in others. Live in your imaginary security blanket. You are the one not being realistic. Oh, and without making choices ("positives" and "negatives"), you could not come up with a single conclusion on your own beliefs.

[ November 13, 2002: Message edited by: Zentraedi ]</p>

Eudaimonist

Careful... not all atheists will agree with this. There is no such thing as an exclusive "atheist's morality". I, for one, do not believe my behavior is controlled by instincts, though it may be influenced by them.