Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Joe Meert · 07-17-2003, 03:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BrianTerrel
Like these fellows then

http://fig.cox.miami.edu/~bhoward/bil150_99/amoeba.html

(thanks to whoever first posted that btw, i've forgotten which thread i bookmarked it from)

JM: So cool! Thanks! No doubt you've created two more gaps in there somewhere. Here's another cool site on this organism:

http://www.iam.ubc.ca/~stan/Thesis/Thesis/node1.htm

Cheers

Joe Meert

Albion · 07-17-2003, 07:36 PM

The only transitional that would satisfy them is something that's clearly impossible, because they know that transitionals don't exist. Therefore, the only acceptable transitional is one that can't occur, and the ones that do occur aren't transitionals. We're not talking logic here.

Al Fresco · 07-17-2003, 07:48 PM

Don't forget the elusive slime molds.

MortalWombat · 07-18-2003, 12:41 PM

Also, let's not forget the Chlorophyceae, flagellated green algae which range from unicellular Chlamydomonas

to species which live colonies of cells which are basically like 4 to 16 Chlamydomonas stuck together, such as Gonium:

to the Volvox, which lives in spherical colonies of hundreds of Chlamydomonas-like cells:

All of these closely related organisms live in different configurations depending largely on differences in a few genes.

Joe Meert · 07-18-2003, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Albion
The only transitional that would satisfy them is something that's clearly impossible, because they know that transitionals don't exist. Therefore, the only acceptable transitional is one that can't occur, and the ones that do occur aren't transitionals. We're not talking logic here.

JM: EXACTLY!! However, the only way to show this absurdity is to ask them to describe it in detail!

Cheers

Joe Meert

JaeIsGod · 07-18-2003, 11:49 PM

It only counts if it's half man half fish , with two third of a wing.
Seriously , that is what alot of creat. seem to expect =[

Joe Meert · 07-22-2003, 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Albion
The only transitional that would satisfy them is something that's clearly impossible, because they know that transitionals don't exist. Therefore, the only acceptable transitional is one that can't occur, and the ones that do occur aren't transitionals. We're not talking logic here.

JM: No kidding. Am I dense here or what?

http://forums.christiansunite.com/in...y;threadid=794

Jimmy Davies · 07-22-2003, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Joe Meert
I am having a 'debate' on a different board and discovered something about creationists that is new to me. The poster started off by insisting that there were no precursors to the Cambrian taxa. When I mentioned possible links to Ediacara, he insisted there were no links between single-cell organisms and Ediacaran fauna. Nothing new there (replace one gap with another or two more). So finally I asked him to provide me (with details) with a description of what he would accept as a transitional fossil between single-celled organisms and multi-cellular organisms. He's trying desperately to change the topic and the question, but has not offered a description of what he might accept as transitional. So here's my question. Other than the obvious absurdities (half cow, half whale) explanations, has any creationist offered a detailed explanation of what an acceptable transitional would look like?

Cheers

Joe Meert

Hi Joe. First off no organism is "transitional." In that it is a stage between what was and what will be. Every organism is exactly what it is, and must hold its own weight, be its own justification in a competitive environment. Creationists tend to not understand this, and so when you talk of transitional fossils you confuse them with the notion that a past organism did it's transitional duty and was half cow and half whatever the hell else, just so we could have whole cow, just so we could have Angus burgers at Hardees.

Remember there is no "improvement" in evolution, what comes after is not better than what went before, just better adapted for the environment prevelant at a critical time. If we are going to say life is evolving to more complicated organisms, then we better remember what Gould said, that this is the Age of Bacteria, that it has always been the Age of Bacteria.

Keeping fundos aware that evoltuion is not progress should be our foremost concern, as it implies intelligent direction and purpose, which do not exist. No power or force anywhere is keeping tabs and managing the transitional progress of organisms. And if there is, I'm gonna find a more powerful force to kick his rotten ass for giving us flies and ticks and skeeter bugs.

Rhaedas · 07-22-2003, 12:59 PM

Well stated, Jimmy, and good points. Transitional, improvement, evolutionary ladder, hell, even "evolve" itself, all imply a progression of purpose. In reality, there is here and now, and either the genes get passed, or they don't. Period. End of story. Any improvements or betterment for the species as a whole is just our inate human sense of pattern matching.

It's much akin to describing the movement of air from low to high pressure as something the air molecules "want" to do...personification is a human thing to do, but in the sciences it can be very misleading.

Jimmy Davies · 07-22-2003, 01:32 PM

It's much akin to describing the movement of air from low to high pressure as something the air molecules "want" to do...personification is a human thing to do, but in the sciences it can be very misleading. [/B][/QUOTE]

Yes, Rhaedas, but they did find a "face" on Mars. Romantics are always looking for faces and messages in clouds and in smoked glass, but you never see them over their toilet looking for faces in feces. I guess there are some pursuits too over the top even for pattern matching obsessed humans.

"Honey, quick get in here and check this out! I think I've found Jesus! And bring the air freshner!"

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07-17-2003, 07:36 PM	#12
Albion Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: US east coast. And www.theroyalforums.com Posts: 2,829	The only transitional that would satisfy them is something that's clearly impossible, because they know that transitionals don't exist. Therefore, the only acceptable transitional is one that can't occur, and the ones that do occur aren't transitionals. We're not talking logic here.

07-17-2003, 07:48 PM	#13
Al Fresco Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Sandpoint, ID Posts: 363	Don't forget the elusive slime molds.

07-18-2003, 12:41 PM	#14
MortalWombat Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: St Louis area Posts: 3,458	Also, let's not forget the Chlorophyceae, flagellated green algae which range from unicellular Chlamydomonas to species which live colonies of cells which are basically like 4 to 16 Chlamydomonas stuck together, such as Gonium: to the Volvox, which lives in spherical colonies of hundreds of Chlamydomonas-like cells: All of these closely related organisms live in different configurations depending largely on differences in a few genes.

07-18-2003, 11:49 PM	#16
JaeIsGod Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Netherlands Posts: 760	It only counts if it's half man half fish , with two third of a wing. Seriously , that is what alot of creat. seem to expect =[

07-22-2003, 12:59 PM	#19
Rhaedas Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,440	Well stated, Jimmy, and good points. Transitional, improvement, evolutionary ladder, hell, even "evolve" itself, all imply a progression of purpose. In reality, there is here and now, and either the genes get passed, or they don't. Period. End of story. Any improvements or betterment for the species as a whole is just our inate human sense of pattern matching. It's much akin to describing the movement of air from low to high pressure as something the air molecules "want" to do...personification is a human thing to do, but in the sciences it can be very misleading.

07-22-2003, 01:32 PM	#20
Jimmy Davies Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Belle Fourche, SD 57717 Posts: 34	It's much akin to describing the movement of air from low to high pressure as something the air molecules "want" to do...personification is a human thing to do, but in the sciences it can be very misleading. [/B][/QUOTE] Yes, Rhaedas, but they did find a "face" on Mars. Romantics are always looking for faces and messages in clouds and in smoked glass, but you never see them over their toilet looking for faces in feces. I guess there are some pursuits too over the top even for pattern matching obsessed humans. "Honey, quick get in here and check this out! I think I've found Jesus! And bring the air freshner!"

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