Happy Wonderer

Er, that isn't completely true for the German naval code. We had a spotty record with the Naval code for the Germans, and had tremendous problems when they added a new rotor. There were successes, such as when we captured a German weather reporting ship, but they didn't last. We located the U-boats by high-frequency direction finding; the German tactics involved lots of inter-ship chatter. We didn't always know what they were saying, but we knew where they were.

The Germans, on the other hand, had cracked the British naval code which might explain why they were so successful at intercepting convoys (until the advent of escorts, especially carrier-types.)

HW, the nit-picker.

Sabine Grant

It is interesting to read thru this thread the various perceptions of WW2 events....
If one were to meet with a french vet or direct witness of the German occupation of France, he would be the recipient of feelings expressing gratitude for the US intervention which also prevented a possible bolchevik domination from the Eastern front thru the Soviet troops. I can recall my father's sentiments as he would tell how he was freed from a labor camp....
My mother who saw the war from the northern African front going to the American camp near by Siddi bel Abbes where a GI would throw Hershey candy above the fence to the dozens of kids like her...those moments are part of the individuality of many french people.
As I communicate with family and friends back in my country, I do not detect any anti american people feelings. I do detect though an anti war feeling.
I think for those who understand and have lived thru the actual events of any war, political considerations may be futile. I wonder how many vietnam vets in the Us for example are presently supporting the idea of a war.
To the comment that was made generalizing and labeling France to be entrapped in cowardice, the French Resistance was an example of great bravery.
It is easy to sit back on the observer bench and express critical thoughts.... it is a different ball game to be on the war front. My heart goes out to the Us servicemembers men and women who might have to be on the war front. Their perspective years from now as they relate their story to their grand children may be similar to the vietnam vet's.
On the topic of French jokes etc... what is actualy funny to me is how many things American culture has attributed to be " French". French fries... when any European attributes fried potatoes to the nation of Belgium reputated for its "frites" devored with mayonnaise. French toast a very distant relative of what we call " pain perdu", old bread dipped in egg yolk and placed in the oven... ah and the famous " french kiss" which I am still awaiting a general order to boycott in America ( hehehe).

Sabine Grant

Actualy the national symbol of France is a rooster which is known for its combativity. If you are ever attacked by a protective rooster you might see the difference with a chicken.
That comment about the French Resistance as well as your historicaly incorrect mention of the absence of a maquis in the southern Alpes tell me that it would be helpful for you to review your history.
There were different maquis and organized reseaux of resistance throughout the french territory. The FTs ( Francs Tireurs) operated in various regions as smal cells who targeted mostly German officers and executed them. The Digne and Draguignan areas which I happen to be very familiar with harbor monuments honoring maquis partisans who fought in the South. The resistance was mostly concentrated in the Dauphine ( Vercors) ( Grenoble area) which was notorious for german convoys using the old Route Napoleon. It also became sadly notorious for entire villages being destroyed and their inhabitants executed such as the village of Valchevriere which sheltered and supported the local maquis.
The Resistance played a logistic role in preparing D Day by undermining German transportation and communication on the french territory. To deny their importance is simply being ignorant of historical facts.
You also largely simplify the reality of the Northern African front.
By the way what are your sources of information regarding your claims on the ineffectiveness of the resistance?

Amen-Moses

The difference was that in 1939 as part of the general gearing up for war and because people could remember WWI, seeds for all sorts of vegtables were handed out by putting them in magazines and newspapers, later they were also handed out along with ration cards.

Virtually everyone with a garden (we are a nation of gardeners ) planted those seeds and by 1942 we were awash with vegetables. My grandmother and my aunt (she was 15 at the time) have both regaled me on the lack of meat and how they basically had to use marmite mixed with vegetables to try and replace the sunday roast (a long standing tradition that you will still find in almost every UK home). Keeping chickens and bantams also became a national obsession even in the cities and at a push pidgeons could also be bred for food. We were hungry but we weren't starving.

In Germany otoh the initial flush of victory and the efforts by the government to put about victory propaganda meant that it wasn't until late in the war that the same sort of efforts were made.

One of the interesting things I discovered in the diaries was that farmers in Germany intentionally downplayed their crops to officials in order to hoard some for their own use and to sell on the black market, the effect of this was that if you lived in rural areas you didn't even need a ration card because local produce was abundent but in the cities even bread and potatoes were in short supply. In the later diaries he describes how the incoming Russian authorities had to force the farmers to hand over hoarded produce to alleviate the starvation in the cities and were astounded that the farmers would do such a thing.

In the UK noone needed to starve as having a raton card was a guarantee of food even if you had to do without other things or wait for the next delivery, it was in a way a rather civilised affair. In Germany a ration card didn't guarantee anything.

I am well aware of the state Britain was in as I grew up surrounded by people who were there and war stories probably made up half my entire education (one of the in jokes for any Brit of my age is the "pull up a sandbag, grandads talking" variety although sadly todays generation miss all that as the grandparents now can barely remember the war. (my parents were both born right at the end of the war and all my grandparents are now pushing up the daisies).

We are also probably the best served nation on earth when it comes to war documentaries and the recent ones are real eye openers as now even the longest lasting "secret" classifications are expiring. Did you know that a significant proportion of the uranium in the first two atom bombs came from a captured U-boat? The original plan was just to put everything we had into one big bomb (as they weren't too clear yet on what the minimum amount was for a sustained chain reaction) but when they captured (well captured isn't quite the right term as the U-boat just surfaced and radioed it's surrender to the nearest US destroyer) over 250 kg of processed uranium it became possible to have two slightly smaller bombs and still have a significant yield (the fear being that as Japan was also working on the bomb and knew full well how rare the uranium was they might think the first bomb was a one-off and continue the war hoping to get their own ready for use before the allies could build another one).

Amen-Moses

Amen-Moses

btw, I just want to visit the subject of "Missiles" that was raised earlier.

Britain (and Russia to a greater extent) easily matched Germany on rocket technology but we honestly couldn't see a use for them. The V1 (the "cruise missile"?) was not a missile but a flying unguided bomb, it was a terror weapon but was not in any way advanced technology and was ineffective in causing any real military damage when compared to say the Mosquito, it was very easy to bring down and about 5 minutes after launch the radar stations had pinpointed it's origin so we were able to destroy the launch sites almost at will.

We used rockets mainly as air to ground attack weapons against factories, docks, trains, trucks and tanks, whereas the Russians used them as ground to ground weapons in massive salvoes (some Russian rocket packs could fire 72 rockets in a single salvo) against ground troops and forward command positions (and to destroy cities). The Germans made a small modification allowing rockets to be used against the bomber waves by having the rocket explode after a set flight time (sort of like short range flak weapon) this did in fact constitute a missile. Later they also played with wire guidance but so did we, the only difference being that we had far superior air launched weapons by that time and the wire guidance was limited to some naval use.

I have no doubt that if we had needed to we would have also built something similar to the V2 (a real guided missile) and in fact there were plans afoot to do so (the proof being that very shortly after the war we did in fact build them, our first anti aircraft guided missiles date to around 1946).

It wasn't so much the technology that was lacking (our first jets flew in 1943) but that the technology was lacking a use.

I will agree that German optics were superior, in fact our best bomb aiming sight was developed from a captured German model early in the war, and a great deal of effort went into bombing the factories responsible. At the end of the war probably the most amazing piece of military armament (which noone has repeated to this day) was the manned rocket which fired up to 30 unguided missiles, this was the Komet which had automatically firing missiles, triggered by the shadow of a bomber formation above the Komet. All the pilot had to do was fly straight and level at a fixed separation directly under a bomber formation at speeds up to 600 mph and as the shadows fell on the sensor the missiles would fire directly up into the formation exploding after a set flight time. The only defence against this sort of weapon was to follow them after the attack (they usually only had enough fuel for a single pass) and destroy them as they landed.

Amen-Moses

sullster

After reading all the posts of Amen-moses I now realize that the English are the true Master Race. A people of pure genius, foresight, unending resources and the greatest military strategists of all time. The world owes them a singular debt for solely crushing Nazi Germany and inventing every weapon known to man.
Long live the Brittannia!!!!!

Amen-Moses

British please, the Scots are some of our best inventors!

Now you can thank us for saving your arses in the Pacific.

Amen-Moses

Amen-Moses

OK I want to officially thank those who saved our arses in WWI and WWII, in particular I would like to thank; India for manpower* and Tea (the British army fights on Tea!); Australia and New Zealand for manpower, loans, logistic support in the Pacific arena and tinned fruit; Canada for loans, factory space, manpower, shipping, food and loads of other stuff; Russia for kicking the arse out of the German army and deflecting the Luftwaffe to the east; South Africa for loans and manpower; Poland for manpower; France for manpower and especially for the resistance who helped our POW escapees to get home; Holland for manpower, shipping and resistance; Sweden for looking after our pilots who crashed there; Italy for being absolutely crap militarily and being the worlds best turncoats; Greece for manpower and kebabs; Malta for fucking bravery beyond the call of duty; Egypt for sticking by us even when they hated our guts; Arabia (I won't list them all individually) for siding with us in our hour of need; Iran (or Persia if you prefer) for allowing much needed supplies through to Russia; China for never giving in to the Japanese; Greenland and Iceland for allowing us to base our anti-U-boat patrols from their countries; Spain for staying the fuck out of the war; Norway for manpower, especially ship crews to make the northern passage to Russia a reality, and resistance; And finally I'd like to thank the US for being our PX for the latter part of the war, for loans, for manpower and for mass producing our technology for us.

An extra thanks goes to the US and Canada for the support they gave in rebuilding the shattered heart of Europe after the war
Cheers to all of you!

Oh and thanks to Hitler for being such a fucking plonker!

*Manpower includes ships crews, pilots, soldiers and anyone else that aided the war effort.

Amen-Moses

btw sorry if I missed anyone please feel free to add to the list.

sullster

I wish to thank the British for hanging on and kicking the Luftwaffe's arse in 1940-1941 and thus helping der Fuhrer to decide to invade his enemy to the East. For holding on in North Africa in 1941 and kicking Italian ass and thus forcing the Germans to deploy forces which could have gone elsewhere. For the defence of Crete, where though the German airborne conquered, the British killed so many Krauts, that Hitler never used his airborne force again.

I want to thank the British for treating the many thousands of US soldiers who stayed there in a most comradely manner. The British women were very supportive and helped many an American boy become a man. The British civilians put up with a lot of things from the G.I. s.

I want to thank the Tommies who fought alongside the US forces from Normandy to Germany. I particularly want to thank the British 1st Parachute Division,(Red Devils), who suffered 75% casualties in Arnhem, during the failed Market-Garden offensive in September 1944. Although they were badly used by Monty, they were an awesome example of the courage and spirit of the British fighting man. The Germans who fought them, said they were the best they had faced.

theyeti

The V1 was guided. It wouldn't have been able to hit London otherwise. In fact, a common way of stopping it was simply to smack it hard enough to screw up its gyroscopes.

The V1 could be launched from anywhere; you're confusing it with the V2. It's true that it was just a terror weapon, but it did put a significant strain on Allied resources. Unlike the V2, the V1 was probably a worthwhile weapon.

Oh, right. I have little doubt the Great Britain would have build nuclear weapons, laser guided smart bombs, and ICBMs if they wanted to. They could have, but the will just wasn't there.

Why do you think that post-war rocket development in the West was carried out almost exclusively by German scientists?

And the first American jet flew in 1942. Nothing produced by either America or Britain was combat worthy; only the Germans pushed the technology that far.

The Komet was worthless. It killed almost as many German pilots as it did Allied pilots. The ME 262 was the real masterpiece of German aviation technology. None of the allies had anything close to it.

theyeti