Freethought & Rationalism Archive

John Page · 07-05-2002, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David Mathews:
Have you been looking for evidence for God? Where have you been looking?

Yes, everywhere. I was a regular church goer for 15 years and nary a trace, only feelgood stuff. Most of the members didn't even care about the arguments of whether there was a god or not, the church for them was a nice establishment that was beneficial for society and was a good place because of the moral standards etc. Protestant BTW.

Quote:

Originally posted by David Mathews:
Theism's connection with knowledge, direct observation and evidence begins in Genesis 1:1, where the subject of heaven and earth are introduced with God at the beginning. Theism's connection with knowledge, direct observation and evidence continues throughout the Bible in the interactions between God and man.

Fairy tales of the ancients IMO. Why do you think the indirect "knowledge" you cite above is superior to modern-day reliably documented facts?

Quote:

Originally posted by David Mathews:
If my reasons for believing are not satisfying to you, that's unfortunate. Of course, I did not present my beliefs in order to satisfy your expectations or requirements.

Satisfying to me? Irrelevant. You're evading the self-contradiction I pointed out in your statements of why you believed in god. So, either be honest with yourself and admit there's a significant inconsistency or rebut my comment.

Cheers, John

Theli · 07-05-2002, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David Mathews:
Theism's connection with knowledge, direct observation and evidence begins in Genesis 1:1, where the subject of heaven and earth are introduced with God at the beginning. Theism's connection with knowledge, direct observation and evidence continues throughout the Bible in the interactions between God and man.

I thought you said one could not base beliefs/convictions on knowledge...
And also, replace "theism" with "christianity".

[ July 05, 2002: Message edited by: Theli ]

Ryanfire · 07-05-2002, 11:25 AM

David,

You want to talk about a philosophical necessity?

You would sell humanity to buy god.

That is you in a nutshell.

Autonemesis · 07-05-2002, 11:39 AM

I began wondering about 15 pages ago whether BH had pulled a fast one on us. What we have here in David Mathews is nothing more or less than a Christian solipsist: The only thing that is real is Jesus.

David Mathews · 07-05-2002, 01:40 PM

Hello Intensity,

Quote:

Thank U for accepting that the bible provides no useful explanation concerning "creation" and only serves to mystify the question of how the universe came to be.

David: The Biblical account does not mystify the creation. The Biblical account introduces the mystery to humanity and that is why so many people are concerned about its meaning.

Quote:

David: The quality of the self which seems the greatest mystery to me is self-awareness, intellect, morality, ethics and aesthetics.

Intensity: Unless you relish having some issues tucked under your armpit called "mysteries", self-awareness, and the other three "items" you have mentioned all have very naturalistic explanations.

David: Self-awareness, intellect, morality, ethics and aesthetics have naturalistic explanations? Would you be so kind to identify those naturalistic explanations?

Quote:

My only mystery has been "how could a being as complex as God just pop into existence?"
Of course after turning it around in my mind, I reach the firm decision that there is absolutely no basis to even think God exists.

David: Your ability to settle this matter in your own mind does not indicate that your answer is correct or better than anyone else's.

Quote:

We are only as complex as we think we are. Our complexity is a viewpoint not a fact.
Even bacteria can claim complexity.

David: Bacteria are complex, all forms of life are complex. More complex than anything that humans have ever made.

Quote:

So, unless we have a complete set of facts we should believe in a fairy God because the fairy God does not need a complete set of facts? How wise!
Why bother about facts at all if faith is an available alternative in the absence of a complete set of facts?

David: That's a good question, indeed. My answer is quite simple: Humans can not possess all of the facts & humans will never gather all of the facts even if we have two hundred million years in which to gather them.

Quote:

God only needs to make sense. That is the only evidence.
I find the inadequacy objection to be a very compelling argument against the existence of God.

David: God must make sense? By what law?

Quantum mechanics does not make sense. Why must God make sense?

Quote:

This is called appeal to ignorance and it is a very weak argumment.

David: Maybe so, but there is little doubt that humans are extraordinarily ignorant about a great many things.

Quote:

You use faith. What limitations does faith have?
Faith has no limitations because it is what people resort to when they give up trying.
It is the path of least resistance. In fact, the "limitations" make faith meaningful.
So, NO, it is not the same way sir.

David: Faith has limitations, the Bible declares as much. Faith is by no means the path of least resistance because religious people live in the same Universe as you do, confronting the same problems and subject to the same weaknesses as any atheist.

Quote:

Naturalism will explain everything that we need to know in order to function effectively in our environment.
Naturalism will not explain for example whether a pig has a soul or not.

David: The moment that you say that "naturalism will explain everything that we need to know" you are speaking subjectively.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

David Mathews · 07-05-2002, 02:06 PM

Hello Theli,

Quote:

How is this soul constructed?

David: I suppose that the soul is non-physical, beyond that I can't claim to know anything else about it.

Quote:

Does it's individual construction have any impact on your behavour? Or is your brain responsible for your behavour?

David: The soul is responsible and the brain is also responsible. I can't draw any lines of division between the two because as of now the brain's functioning is poorly described and not yet comprehended.

Quote:

The first point is based on definition of the words we use. Whats subjective about that?

David: Those statements are subjective in the sense that you are speaking about matters of opinion of matters of the mind which are not subject to empirical, objective investigation.

Quote:

What??!?!?!
You told me god was not real!
Do you even know what you are talking about?
Do you even have a worldview/belief?
It seems to be changing for every post you make.

David: God is not real in the sense that physical things are real. God is real in a sense that physical things are not real. Though these two sentences seem to contradict in reality they do not.

Quote:

So how can we know enough to utilize our knowledge if it is just unfounded assumptions?

David: Because we can live quite well in ignorance. For many tens of thousands of years humans lives without any sort of accurate knowledge of anything, life itself does not require such knowledge.

Knowledge is a luxury. I suppose that about 100% of humans remain in almost total ignorance about the world which surrounds them.

Quote:

Didn't you say that Hindu scriptures had no impact on your beliefsystem? So what use does it have? A good night reading?

David: When I read the Hindu scriptures I gain an appreciation for the wisdom and profundity of the Hindus. That allows me to respect and tolerate Hindus as Hindus, removing all fear and distrust based upon perceived religious differences.

Quote:

When did this become a legal issue?
You can beieve in whatever you want to, how dumb it might be. But now you have made statements of your belief, saying they are true. And you must expect people who disagree with you will do so.
An imagined creature can have contradictory attributes, I agree. There's no law against believing in ghosts, elves or santa.

David: You do know that even humans are found with contradictory characteristics. Depending on the environment, a brutal person can even be kind.

Quote:

Yet you call him eternal. Even if that is something your limited human mind cannot comprehend (your own words). So, by claiming that god exist, and is eternal you are actually lying.

David: It is a lie, in a sense, to speak about God in any way which would suggest that I really knew what I was speaking about. However, if I must speak about God I must use analogies and allegories based upon things that humans comprehend. These analogies and allegories are necessary but they are -- as you say -- lies.

If I was to speak honestly about God, you would not be able to understand at all what I was speaking about, nor could I understand what I was saying.

Quote:

David: A strong theist is a person whose faith in God does not demand or require validation or verification by atheists such as yourself.

Theli: I would call that deluded theist. But ok.
Where did you get this definition from anyway?

David: I made the definition up myself. I think the definition is a good one which Christians should adopt immediately. Christians are not in need of approval from atheists for their beliefs or religious convictions.

Quote:

Now temporal things are real?
First they were not real, and now they suddenly are.
The same goes with god. First he was unreal, now he's real.
The humanity!

David: The problem is in the word "real" as it is ambiguous. Perhaps there are more technical philosophical terms which would not lead to these apparent contradictions.

Quote:

You haven't answered my question yet. Is there anything that can distinguish god from nothing? Anything at all?

David: I suppose that there is, but I am not in any position to say what that would be.

Quote:

The simple syntax definition I think should do fine. No Thing. No events, no structure, no order, no cause, no effect, no time, no space and no popcorn.

So, once again. What is the difference between nothing and god?

David: Would you say that "nothing" is an accurate term to describe things outside of this Universe? That is: Would you say that beyond the boundaries of the Universe is nothingness?

Quote:

David: The scientific method is not equipped to resolve ultimate philosophical questions.

Theli: What is?

David: Ultimate philosophical questions are not resolved by anything.

Quote:

David: I believe that atheism in its simplest form is strictly an opinion altogether divorced from evidence, proof, logic, philosophy and reason.

Theli: You're the one to talk? You can't even decide if god is real or not. Who are you to talk of reason?

David: I am merely stating a fact regarding atheism, not criticizing atheism.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

David Mathews · 07-05-2002, 02:11 PM

Hello agapeo,

Quote:

Then why do you write what you do?

David: I write whatever is on my mind. I don't write to make other people happy, nor do I write to satisfy the expectations of atheists.

Quote:

Do you feel as though you're on a "mission from God"? I seriously doubt that to be the case.

David: I am not on a mission from God. I write for myself, I am not here to represent anyone. I don't presume myself God's spokesperson.

Quote:

Remember the analogy of sheep and goats? (no offence to the atheists posting here)It seems to me that God would have better and greener pastures that He would want you to give your time to. And besides this -- To say you don't care, I have to wonder if God feels the same way. What do you think?

David: I talk to all sorts of people for all sorts of reasons. I don't concern myself with the expectations of others and I don't care if what I write makes anyone happy.

If you are happy, you are happy for your own self; if you are sad, you are sad for your own self. If the atheists are not happy that is just pitiable for them but of no consequence to me.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

David Mathews · 07-05-2002, 02:17 PM

Hello Nyx,

Quote:

I have not read the document Intensity referred you to.

The document is located here:
<a href="http://atheist.8k.com/twodozen.html" target="_blank">http://atheist.8k.com/twodozen.html</a>

You can read it and form your own opinion of its merits.

Quote:

Is it your independent conclusion that athiesm offers nothing positive? How so?

David: Atheism is strictly and exclusively a denial of God's & any gods' existence. Atheism is nothing else except for this denial. Therefore, atheism offers nothing positive.

Quote:

Compare it to Christian positives please.

David: Christianity's positives are: Love God & Love your neighbor as your own self.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

David Mathews · 07-05-2002, 02:20 PM

Hello John Page,

Quote:

Yes, everywhere. I was a regular church goer for 15 years and nary a trace, only feelgood stuff. Most of the members didn't even care about the arguments of whether there was a god or not, the church for them was a nice establishment that was beneficial for society and was a good place because of the moral standards etc. Protestant BTW.

David: Why should they have cared about the arguments concerning God's existence? No one is obligated to care about such arguments.

Quote:

Fairy tales of the ancients IMO. Why do you think the indirect "knowledge" you cite above is superior to modern-day reliably documented facts?

David: What documented facts are you speaking about?

Sincerely,

David Mathews

David Mathews · 07-05-2002, 02:22 PM

Hello Ryanfire:

Quote:

You want to talk about a philosophical necessity?

You would sell humanity to buy god.

David: What are you speaking about?

Sincerely,

David Mathews

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

07-05-2002, 11:25 AM	#383
Ryanfire Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 301	David, You want to talk about a philosophical necessity? You would sell humanity to buy god. That is you in a nutshell.

07-05-2002, 11:39 AM	#384
Autonemesis Contributor Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: I've left FRDB for good, due to new WI&P policy Posts: 12,048	I began wondering about 15 pages ago whether BH had pulled a fast one on us. What we have here in David Mathews is nothing more or less than a Christian solipsist: The only thing that is real is Jesus.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.