Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Amen-Moses · 11-05-2002, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by GeoTheo:
But the fact remains We are in charge. We alone decide the fates of our fellow creatures. There is no committee of woodchucks arguing over our fate.

How do you know?

Personally I reckon the Cats are in charge.

Amen-Moses

Marduk · 11-05-2002, 02:46 PM

“But the fact remains We are in charge. We alone decide the fates of our fellow creatures. “

When have we ever decided anything? We do things at random and bump into each other like ants. The guy who first built a car did not ‘decide’ on middle eastern oil dependency or a system of super highways or the dominance of big oil or inane tire commercials. These things just happened, we improvise as we go along to satisfy our own perverse needs. When nature, the earth, evolution or what ever you may call it has had enough, it will shake us off like a wet dog removes water droplets. Humans are an unnecessary, self obsessed, destructive, violent, fluke of nature that will not last 1/10000th as long as a dumb mastodon.

Doubting Didymus · 11-05-2002, 02:59 PM

Geo, you are missing something.

'in charge of' does not mean 'superior'. Just because there might be someone out there who is capable of dictating my fate does not mean they are nessesarily better than me.

If George Bush wanted me dead, he could probably have me assasinated with not much immediate trouble. This does not mean that I am inferior to George Bush.

The imperialist tyrant that enslaves the neigbouring country is in charge of that country. He is not neccessarily superior to the people of that country.

Stephen T-B · 11-06-2002, 04:38 AM

We are most emphaticallynot in charge.
We are certainly able to kill things in very large numbers, and are able to wipe some species out - and to our great cost, I have no doubt. But GeoTheo, do you think we wouldn�t have made rats extinct if we had been able to?
The Australians hoped to wipe out their rabbits by introducing myxomatosis, and the rabbits became resistant to it.
Bacteria become resistant to antibiotics - some even feed on them - causing massive problems for our hospitals.
We can mess up the eco-system to a serious extent,, but parts of it - some of them pernicious - will carry on as though we never existed . We may discover they actually thrive in the conditions we thoughttlessly create

Paul2 · 11-06-2002, 11:39 AM

human's are different from animals but i wouldnt say superior. humans are aware of being aware, animals are not. human's control their environment, where animals react to their enviroment. if i was at home i'd bust out the philosophy 101 notes and explain to you in more detail.

Amen-Moses · 11-06-2002, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Paul2:
human's are different from animals but i wouldnt say superior. humans are aware of being aware, animals are not. human's control their environment, where animals react to their enviroment. if i was at home i'd bust out the philosophy 101 notes and explain to you in more detail.

I hate to burst your bubble but Bees, Ants and Termites all control their environment and virtually all "higher" mammals are fully aware of being aware (think ALL marine mammals and all primates, not to mention virtually all canines as well).

We ain't as different as people like to think.

Maybe the combination of being aware of being aware PLU being able to control our environment PLUS being able to communicate both things to others of our species is unique though.

Amen-Moses

Doubting Didymus · 11-06-2002, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Paul2:
 if i was at home i'd bust out the philosophy 101 notes and explain to you in more detail.

How old are your notes? I only ask because there has been a LOT of paradigm shifting in this area in the last couple of years and decades.

Paul2 · 11-07-2002, 04:45 AM

when was the last time you saw a bee hive with air conditioning? examples? my notes are from last year, if things have changed greatly since then i'd like to know about it. links? thanks.

Quote:

Originally posted by Amen-Moses:


I hate to burst your bubble but Bees, Ants and Termites all control their environment and virtually all "higher" mammals are fully aware of being aware (think ALL marine mammals and all primates, not to mention virtually all canines as well).

We ain't as different as people like to think.

Maybe the combination of being aware of being aware PLU being able to control our environment PLUS being able to communicate both things to others of our species is unique though.

Amen-Moses

Amen-Moses · 11-07-2002, 04:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Paul2:
when was the last time you saw a bee hive with air conditioning? examples? my notes are from last year, if things have changed greatly since then i'd like to know about it. links? thanks.

All bee hives have air conditioning, not quite as good as that of Termites but perfectly adequate all the same. The hatchery, queens chambers and food storage area all have to be kept at specific temeratures and humidity levels, that is why they build the hives in the first place!

They also have agriculture (in the case of Termites it is also linked to the air conditioning, a really efficient way of doing things) and some Ant species even farm other species in the same way we do with dairies.

Amen-Moses

[ November 07, 2002: Message edited by: Amen-Moses ]

Paul2 · 11-07-2002, 05:19 AM

Thank's for reminding me not to enter a discussion without being prepaired. anyway, i brought up those same things with my professor and he explained it. i'll try to locate my notes, i moved into a new appartment and thing's dissappeared :/

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11-05-2002, 02:46 PM	#42
Marduk Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: the 10th planet Posts: 5,065	“But the fact remains We are in charge. We alone decide the fates of our fellow creatures. “ When have we ever decided anything? We do things at random and bump into each other like ants. The guy who first built a car did not ‘decide’ on middle eastern oil dependency or a system of super highways or the dominance of big oil or inane tire commercials. These things just happened, we improvise as we go along to satisfy our own perverse needs. When nature, the earth, evolution or what ever you may call it has had enough, it will shake us off like a wet dog removes water droplets. Humans are an unnecessary, self obsessed, destructive, violent, fluke of nature that will not last 1/10000th as long as a dumb mastodon.

11-05-2002, 02:59 PM	#43
Doubting Didymus Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: East Coast. Australia. Posts: 5,455	Geo, you are missing something. 'in charge of' does not mean 'superior'. Just because there might be someone out there who is capable of dictating my fate does not mean they are nessesarily better than me. If George Bush wanted me dead, he could probably have me assasinated with not much immediate trouble. This does not mean that I am inferior to George Bush. The imperialist tyrant that enslaves the neigbouring country is in charge of that country. He is not neccessarily superior to the people of that country.

11-06-2002, 04:38 AM	#44
Stephen T-B Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Leeds, UK Posts: 5,878	We are most emphaticallynot in charge. We are certainly able to kill things in very large numbers, and are able to wipe some species out - and to our great cost, I have no doubt. But GeoTheo, do you think we wouldn�t have made rats extinct if we had been able to? The Australians hoped to wipe out their rabbits by introducing myxomatosis, and the rabbits became resistant to it. Bacteria become resistant to antibiotics - some even feed on them - causing massive problems for our hospitals. We can mess up the eco-system to a serious extent,, but parts of it - some of them pernicious - will carry on as though we never existed . We may discover they actually thrive in the conditions we thoughttlessly create

11-06-2002, 11:39 AM	#45
Paul2 Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,088	human's are different from animals but i wouldnt say superior. humans are aware of being aware, animals are not. human's control their environment, where animals react to their enviroment. if i was at home i'd bust out the philosophy 101 notes and explain to you in more detail.

11-07-2002, 05:19 AM	#50
Paul2 Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,088	Thank's for reminding me not to enter a discussion without being prepaired. anyway, i brought up those same things with my professor and he explained it. i'll try to locate my notes, i moved into a new appartment and thing's dissappeared :/

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