beyelzu

lucky charm,


once you start doubting verses in the bible where does it stop. While many xians do argue that it should not all be taken literally. I dont see any way that god's commands to go out and kill another people and take the young virgins as slaves can be interpeted as anything other than what it says. So if its not metaphorical and you doubt it, it can only be factually inaccurate. ie, god did not tell the israelites to do this. So, if it is factually inaccurate, why then do you hold the rest of it to be true.

Also, if it is inaccurate, then how can it be divinely inspired. And if its isnt divinely inspired, is the rest of the bible?


what do we get out of worshipping god, besides eternal salvation. If that's all we get then it is only because of god's need for acceptance, because he set up that system.

LuckyCharm

Free will without the ability to choose evil? I don't see how you can call this "free" in any meaningful sense of the word. We wouldn't be true moral agents, but robots instead, under such a restriction. And God desires our love by free choice rather than by compulsion -- don't you desire the same from your own loved ones? Would their love mean as much to you if you knew they were utterly incapable of choosing otherwise?

No, what I am saying is RIGHT makes right. My exact words were, "...as the Creator, He has every right to do so..." In other words, it is His authority as Creator that confers the absolute right to do as He pleases within His creation. Cf. the "potter and clay" analogy.

Another short-sighted, egocentric perspective on life and the universe... As if a tidal wave could sweep through a village and only destroy some of the homes!

The Bible teaches that, as moral agents, humankind was given dominion over all the earth. But we messed it up. And all the earth suffers as a result. Whether I personally have done anything deserving of an earthquake or even a traffic jam on the way to an important job interview is not the question. We're all in this together, and together we sink or swim. Our actions do affect other people, like it or not, and theirs affect us. And all of our actions affect our general environment and quality of life. More on this in a moment, as you bring it up again later in your post.

So you say. How are you to know when you are seeing the "best" of any given person? Sometimes the transformations wrought in the human soul by suffering are hidden, though profound. This isn't a uniquely Christian idea, BTW.

Again, so you say. I know that some of the worst times in my life, though they may not have brought out the best in me at that particular time, have taught me valuable lessons in "percolation" that I'm sure I wouldn't have learned otherwise. I'm sorry you have not had similar experiences.

Sin is, very simply, rejection of God's love. It often manifests in concrete and finite actions, of course, but that is not what we are "sent to hell" for. Hell is eternal banishment from the love of God -- in other words, He is only honoring our free choice to reject Him forever.

So you would blame God for your sin? Be my guest, if you really feel okay about that. Me, I wouldn't dare be so presumptuous.

As I was saying before, we as a race are all in this together. We cannot exist except in connection with the rest of the planet, even indirectly. Even if you were stranded on a desert island by yourself, you would still be affected by air pollution, global warming, etc. Tough cookies, eh?

But are you so sure you haven't rebelled against God? I'm not one to judge, but from the tone of your messages here, it certainly sounds like you have! Whose way are you going, if not your own?

You use some pretty tired old arguments yourself. This is the old, "God knew we'd screw up, so He's to blame for creating us in the first place!" Well, let's suppose He did -- why would He even bother creating us at all? Could it be that He so desired to show us the depth of His love that He could do it only from a state of sin? Let's use a human example -- who do you admire more: a parent who brags about his straight-A, bound-for-Harvard, Eagle Scout teenager, or one who only works part-time in order to care for his wheelchair-bound Down's Syndrome child? Which is the better example of humble, self-sacrificing love?

Perhaps you have a very different experience of humanity as a whole than I do. In my civilian role as customer support for Microsoft, I am singularly unimpressed by the average caller's intelligence, moral grounding (if you only knew how many software pirates call us!) and self-responsibility. IMO, most of them definitely do need help, and not the kind I'm hired to provide!

Go for it. Good luck saving the world.

I don't follow apologetic trends, but I do know my Bible. And the first epistle of John speaks at length about God's nature as Love.

~~Cheryl

beyelzu

ok, the reason that a tidal wave cant be divided up to strike only some houses is because god made it that way. thus he is responsible for the ineffeciency in the system. Furthermore, there are perfectly natural explanations for these phenomena, no god needed. But if you honestly believe that god sends drought to punish us poor unbelievers and sinners and innocent children suffer, well I cant understand why you would want to worship such a god.

LuckyCharm

"One of the problems with the United States Constitution is that it can be interpreted in many ways... Obviously, its authors were not clear communicators."

So, what is the Supreme Court to do -- throw out the Constitution altogether, or seek to apply it as faithfully as possible in every case presented to it?

I must confess I do not recall the specifics of that thread, nor do I seem to be able to locate it through a search. Could you give me a link, or a title, or even quote the portion you're referring to?

One more blessing I can be thankful for! That I belong to the apparent minority of people who have actually, without a doubt, experienced first-hand the love of my Creator! Hallelujah...

Actions do speak louder than words. However, most people are very clever at putting on a show when it suits them, and it takes a very shrewd and objective observer to detect the subtle hints that would indicate that all is not as it seems on the surface.

This was in response to my statement that "We are absolutely called to work for peace and justice for all. But we'll be most effective in that endeavor if we can do so with a light spirit, unencumbered by the foul 'dust' of the past." Which, of course, was in response to your "I'll not let it go in the way you mean. Change for the better in the world will not happen if we ignore injustices and the belief systems that feed them." In other words, you don't feel you could effect "change for the better in the world" and still let go of the anger you harbor toward those who have hurt you in the past?

~~Cheryl

LuckyCharm

The Bible is primarily a book of spiritual guidance. Many people find guidance in Aesop's fables, for that matter -- yet no one feels compelled to defend their factual accuracy. That is not to say I believe nothing in the Bible is factually accurate -- the way to tell is by critical reading skills and interpretation.

I don't believe the Bible is "inaccurate," any more than my own personal diary is inaccurate. Sure, it contains apparent inconsistencies, and references that only have meaning to me, but that doesn't make it inaccurate. Many people enjoy reading it online every day nonetheless, and seem to feel it is worth their time.

This question simply boggles my mind. What more could you want besides eternal salvation?? "If that's all we get..."??? What are you talking about??

Okay, take it up with Him, then, when you get the chance. And you will.

Please offer some of these "perfectly natural" explanations. And, in the interest of time, since I may need to leave permanently at a moment's notice, please offer explanations for your explanations, as far back as you can. I will then question you further.

I explained at length in my most recent posts why I believe the innocent suffer along with everyone else. Careful reading skills... could this be part of your inability to understand the Bible, too?

~~Cheryl

LuckyCharm

Just thought some of you might be interested in this article I came across on a newsgroup -- presents a rather different approach to Christianity than some might have been exposed to:

http://www.orthodoxpress.org/parish/river_of_fire.htm

From the article:

Now if anyone is perplexed and does not understand how it is possible for God's love to render anyone pitifully wretched and miserable and even burning as it were in flames, let him consider the elder brother of the prodigal son. Was he not in his father's estate? Did not everything in it belong to him? Did he not have his father's love? Did his father not come himself to entreat and beseech him to come and take part in the joyous banquet? What rendered him miserable and burned him with inner bitterness and hate? Who refused him anything? Why was he not joyous at his brother's return? Why did he not have love either toward his father or toward his brother? Was it not because of his wicked, inner disposition? Did he not remain in hell because of that? And what was this hell? Was it any separate place? Were there any instruments of torture? Did he not continue to live in his father's house? What separated him from all the joyous people in the house if not his own hate and his own bitterness? Did his father, or even his brother, stop loving him? Was it not precisely this very love which hardened his heart more and more? Was it not the joy that made him sad? Was not hatred burning in his heart, hatred for his father and his brother, hatred for the love of his father toward his brother and for the love of his brother toward his father? This is hell: the negation of love; the return of hate for love; bitterness at seeing innocent joy; to be surrounded by love and to have hate in one's heart. This is the eternal condition of all the damned.

Enjoy!

~~Cheryl

THE_LEGENDARY_HQB

Originally posted by LuckyCharm, from an article she copied:
"Now if anyone is perplexed and does not understand how it is possible for God's love to render anyone pitifully wretched and miserable and even burning as it were in flames, let him consider the elder brother of the prodigal son. Was he not in his father's estate? Did not everything in it belong to him? Did he not have his father's love? Did his father not come himself to entreat and beseech him to come and take part in the joyous banquet? What rendered him miserable and burned him with inner bitterness and hate? Who refused him anything? Why was he not joyous at his brother's return? Why did he not have love either toward his father or toward his brother? Was it not because of his wicked, inner disposition? Did he not remain in hell because of that? And what was this hell? Was it any separate place? Were there any instruments of torture? Did he not continue to live in his father's house? What separated him from all the joyous people in the house if not his own hate and his own bitterness? Did his father, or even his brother, stop loving him? Was it not precisely this very love which hardened his heart more and more? Was it not the joy that made him sad? Was not hatred burning in his heart, hatred for his father and his brother, hatred for the love of his father toward his brother and for the love of his brother toward his father? This is hell: the negation of love; the return of hate for love; bitterness at seeing innocent joy; to be surrounded by love and to have hate in one's heart. This is the eternal condition of all the damned."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LOLSDOMA!!!!

Again, allow me to say:
BRAVO!!!!!!
:notworthy :notworthy :notworthy

Hell is comparable to being eternally angry bitter toward "innocent joy"?

Bzzzzzzt!

Isn't it strange, LC, that according to the Bible, those who have "innocent joy" are roasting right along with the murderers and rapists of the world. Placed there, by the embodiement of absolute love, Jesus Christ.

I've been angry at a lot of people in my life, LC. Sometimes justifiably so, other times not. Strangely, I don't ever recall gnashing my teeth in pain, or writhing in a lake of fire, or smelling any brimstone. Odd, huh?

Could this author, and you by offering him/her as an example, be trying to make the {allegedly} divinely mandated torments of Hell seem somewhat less tortuous?

Eternal seperation from the love of God?!

ABSOLUTE, UNADULTERATED, USDA GRADE A BULLSHIT!

Tell me, exactly how do you seperate yourself from an omnipresent God, hmmmmmm?

And. please explain how a God of infinite love would ever give up on someone and consign them to eternal torment.

Truth is, LC, God, as defined by Christianity, wouldn't know love if it smacked Him in the face!

God's sole requirement, according to the Bible you so cherish, is belief and worship. Period. No love there, just narcissism of unbelievable proportions. You say He wants adulation because it benefits us! Please explain how slobbering, fawning worhsip benefits humanity in any way.

Mankind, according to the Bible, is born, born to burn. Period. Every single person who has ever lived, died, and gone to Hell, according to Christianity, has gone there because God wanted him to. Period. If God didin't want it to be so, it wouldn't be so.

Yes, LC, contrary to your oft stated arguments to the contrary, omniscience does mean that every action, bad or good, in this world, is exactly as God wants it. You mentioned the potter/clay verses earlier, and used them to say, basically that God can do anything He wants to anyone He wants. Guess what?

He wants to burn the vast majority of people in a firey Hell!

He wants to keep Himself hidden, so that millions upon millions who seek Him will fail in their endeavours and...you guessed it...burn in Hell!

He wants to inexplicably "bless" some people, while turning His back on countless others {read the papers about the cannibalism being practiced in the Congo for more evidence of how much your Sky Father cares about His creations}.

Yes, LC, the current miserable state of humanity is exactly what God wants. He saw it coming, He had an infinite ammount of options at His disposal, yet He chose the current situation, to deny this is to deny the absolute Lordship and sovereignty of your Creator!

It's easy for a Christian to say "you're doomed without Jesus!" to random strangers, people on bulletin boards, etc {not saying you have, of course, but I'm assuming you believe that}. It's always a trip to see what happens when the full ramifications of their beliefs are shoved in their faces.

However, consider this. As I write this, according to your religion, LC, God is torturing some of your relatives, since I seriously doubt all of them got "saved".

Since God is omnipresent, you cannot say they're not in the presence of God. In fact, God is "pouring His wrath out upon them"!

I wonder, if you could descend into the Lake of Fire, and ask them if they wilingly chose their fate, I wonder if they'd say "hell ya, we rebelled against God! Never saw Him, never felt Him, never saw any evidence of Him, so I'm not sure exactly how we rebbelled, but we did"!

Imagine that, LC! While the Holy Spirit is givng you "blessings", someone you may have loved with all your heart, someone who you may have willingly laid down your life for, is screaming in unbearable pain, begging for just a drop of water, which, of course, they'll never get. But, I suppose you'll find away to justify even that, since, apparently, your God is allways right. C'est la vie.

Any fundie will tell you. It's not about good or bad, it's about saved or lost.

I challenge you, LC, to try and imagine the sound your best friend would make as he or she is having his/her skin burned off. How about your Grandmother. Mother? Uncle? Can you concieve of it, LC? Go ahead, try it, then let's see if you can still come back and spew your "God is Love" dribble with a clear conscience. If you can, than you definitely belong in the military, because you have some serious balls.

If you place your faith in Jesus at the moment of your death, you go to Heaven. Ethics, morality, good works, etc, have 0% to do with it. "Good news" indeed.

Christianity, at least fundamentalist Christianity, is probably one of the most antithetical religions to human decency that has ever been crafted. It turns traditional concepts of righteousness, love, and justice on its head in such an obvious way, it never fails to to amaze me how otherwise decent people can subscribe to its loathesome tenets.

So, how about it, LC? How are those friends & family of yours doing?

ARRRRRRGH! OH GOD, NOOOO!! PLEASE, SOMEONE HELP ME!

Hallelujah!!!!!!

HQB

LuckyCharm

Well, I certainly hope that was cathartic for you, HQB. Interesting that you chose, not to respond to my last post addressed to you (which if you'll recall, you requested), nor to anything else I wrote yesterday, but to something I didn't write and only offered as a possible alternative viewpoint for the curious.

Oh well, it looks like you at least had fun ridiculing the beliefs you imagine me to hold. And since I have a personal policy against debating other people's erroneous assumptions about me, I am content to allow you to think whatever you like about that.

~~Cheryl

beyelzu

lc,
People enjoy reading Stephen King as well, but that doesnt mean I should base my life around it. As far as inconsitencies, if god cant even be bothered to get his holy book right, why the hell should i worship him?


What spiritual guidance do you get from stories about destroying a people for what there forefathers did?

God set up the system. So if we only get eternal salvation for worshipping god, and that is a system that he set up, where is the justice. Its not do good and go to heaven, in which case one could argue that doing good leads to a better society. Its worship me and go to heaven. and that's just narcisism.



I pointed out the ineffeciency of the system to point to the lack of god, or at least the lack of humanity that god shows. If killing innocents is just for god, how is god moral?

Rational explanations:

plate techtonics for earthquakes and tidal waves.
weather patterns for floods
ps first cause isnt going to get you out of this.
if god can exist uncaused then so can the universe.

I did read your post, your reasoning is immoral. No one is responsible for another's actions. The fact that I can apply morality to such a situation and you can not is not evidence of your superior reading skills, rather it is evidence of xianity's inferior morality.

emur

But the Constitution isn't claimed to be inspired by an omnipotent God. And it's interpreters don't claim to be guided by God in their interpretations.

It is the "Seebs...do you really believe in a god" topic in Religious Discussions.

The minority isn't apparent. It is real. There are a number of people who post on this board who have sought God at some time in their past and didn't experience that love. But you don't seem to care about that. Instead, you gloat over it.
It is this kind of attitude that turns me off to Christianity. The fruit of the Spirit is...?

In using the potter/clay image, and in expecting others to love God despite what happens in their lives, you come across like an abused spouse. In my dealings with domestic violence, the abused wife is the first to defend the abuser's actions and say "I know he loves me".

I'm sure you believe God has not abused you. But you are very good at wanting to defending God when others have legitimate concerns about God and the world they see around them. Instead of trying to understand, you rush in like we slapped your God in the face!

I believe using the potter/clay image is a sign of learned helplessness. "Whatever God wants to do, there is nothing I can do about it; I will just love God anyway." To make a play on one of the lines on Rugrats - "a God's gotta do what a God's gotta do."

If that is how you want to live your life, go ahead. It's not my thing.

Being that anger and pain are two sides of the same coin, yes I still have some anger as a result of my more recent hurts. However, I am not eaten up with it and am learning to use it as a motivator to hopefully change my little part of the world for the better.

I think denying anger is emotionally unhealthy. Do you?

Mel