Freethought & Rationalism Archive

idiom · 12-13-2002, 05:10 AM

You have to remeber your frame of reference is different when one asks "what did Jesus sacrifice"

God's numba one value is relationship. His relationship with His Son had never been broken. The sacrifice made means little to us because we are surrounded by broken relationships.

Jesus' reported words were, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

Second to last thing He said. Apparently it killed Him.

Normally ones lives on a cross for 3-5 days.

Stephen T-B · 12-13-2002, 06:55 AM

The deification of Christ, I suspect, occurred some decades after his death.
It required, over the subsequent centuries, the addition of suitable adornments ie the Virgin Birth, the miracles, the Resurrection and a justification for his ignoble death.
In this last case the concept of a sacrifice having been made would have fitted in with contemporary religious practice: sacrificing to the gods is as old as the hills - well, nearly - and was well understood in every religion and by every culture. Thus Christ�s death, if interpretted as a sacrifice, would have seemed appropriate, especially in terms of that element of Christ�s message which was beginninvg to be discerned and which involved self sacrifice.
This is all quite sophisticated stuff, and it becomes more sophisticated, more mysterious and more intelectually challenging if the �sacrifice� is deemed to have been made on our behalf, for our sins. It becomes part of the New Covenant which Christ introduced. The old one was that you kept to the Law and went to Abraham�s bosom or you didn�t and went to the flames of hell. The New Covenant introduced some flexibility: first of all, you didn�t need to keep to the letter of the Law, but you did need to love God and your neighbour �as yourself,� and while failure to do so would put you into the flames of hell, thanks to Christ and his �sacrifice� on our behalf, repentance is made possible. So we can sin, and because of Christ�s sacrifice, we can repent and go to heaven.
Thank you Jesus.

diana · 12-13-2002, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Stephen T-B:
<strong>In this last case the concept of a sacrifice having been made would have fitted in with contemporary religious practice: sacrificing to the gods is as old as the hills - well, nearly - and was well understood in every religion and by every culture. Thus Christ�s death, if interpretted as a sacrifice, would have seemed appropriate, especially in terms of that element of Christ�s message which was beginninvg to be discerned and which involved self sacrifice.
This is all quite sophisticated stuff, and it becomes more sophisticated, more mysterious and more intelectually challenging if the �sacrifice� is deemed to have been made on our behalf, for our sins. It becomes part of the New Covenant which Christ introduced. The old one was that you kept to the Law and went to Abraham�s bosom or you didn�t and went to the flames of hell. The New Covenant introduced some flexibility: first of all, you didn�t need to keep to the letter of the Law, but you did need to love God and your neighbour �as yourself,� and while failure to do so would put you into the flames of hell, thanks to Christ and his �sacrifice� on our behalf, repentance is made possible. So we can sin, and because of Christ�s sacrifice, we can repent and go to heaven.
Thank you Jesus.</strong>

Good morning, Stephen.

I agree. It strikes me as a natural evolution of religious belief. I think of it as a "price war," among other things.

I'm sure the Jews quickly saw the flaws in their "be absolved of your sins yearly" system. Number one, it was costly. Number two, you lifetime payments (and I suspect not everyone could afford it). Number three, the warranty kept expiring.

So the new "god-given" religion--which I think was spawned by a new priesthood, which is where all the rest seemed to come from, as well--was a new and improved product. It came with a huge "PRICES SLASHED! NO PAYMENT TO MAKE EVER!* LIFETIME WARRANTY!" sticker. (*God says charity is the greatest quality a man can have. All charity gratefully accepted.)

d

Stephen T-B · 12-13-2002, 08:40 AM

Good morning!
Here in very-gloomy Leeds in very-dank Yorkshire it�s the end of another very-horrible day; in about 25 mins. I shall be putting on my wellington boots, gloves, cap and cycling cape and setting off in the rain and a thin fog through the gleaming rush-hour traffic beneath high yellow sodium street lights to my home up the hill.

�Nuff about that.

�So the new "god-given" religion...was a new and improved product. It came with a huge "PRICES SLASHED! NO PAYMENT TO MAKE EVER!* LIFETIME WARRANTY!" sticker.�

Exactly so, which is why Christianity didn�t always have to be spread by the edge of the sword - though it did usually help.

Evangelion · 12-14-2002, 05:14 AM

Stephen T-B -

Quote:

The deification of Christ, I suspect, occurred some decades after his death.

Actually, it took a lot longer than that. The seeds were sown during the middle of the 2nd Century AD, and the final dogma wasn't officially in place until the 4th.

Quote:

It required, over the subsequent centuries, the addition of suitable adornments ie the Virgin Birth, the miracles, the Resurrection and a justification for his ignoble death.

Nope. It required none of these things. The Jewish prophets had already been known to perform miracles, so this obviously wasn't a requirement of the deified Christ. The virgin birth presents no argument for "Christ-as-God", nor does the resurrection (which can be justified without recourse to deification.)

diana · 12-14-2002, 06:16 AM

Good morning, Evangelion!

Quote:

Nope. It required none of these things. The Jewish prophets had already been known to perform miracles, so this obviously wasn't a requirement of the deified Christ.

Are you sure? I'd think if the prophets were known for this, it would then be a minimum requirement of a deity.

Quote:

The virgin birth presents no argument for "Christ-as-God", nor does the resurrection (which can be justified without recourse to deification.)

I've heard that "born of a virgin" was a fairly common calling card for a deity. I cannot, however, produce any actual references, so it may be entirely hearsay.

I do know that death and resurrection was a common god motif, though.

Perhaps they can be justified without recourse to deification, but the definitely seem to point to it, IMO.

d

Evangelion · 12-19-2002, 05:26 AM

Hi Diana. Sorry it's taken so long for me to respond. Christmas is the busiest time of the year where I work, and I'm currently doing overtime everyday. So don't be surprised if I post this and vanish for another 4 days or so.

Quote:

Good morning, Evangelion!

Hiya.

Quote:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nope. It required none of these things. The Jewish prophets had already been known to perform miracles, so this obviously wasn't a requirement of the deified Christ.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Are you sure?

Sure as I'm sure that I've read the OT.

Quote:

I'd think if the prophets were known for this, it would then be a minimum requirement of a deity.

Well, yeah! Of course! But does this necessarily mean that Jesus was supposed to be God?

Nope.

Quote:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The virgin birth presents no argument for "Christ-as-God", nor does the resurrection (which can be justified without recourse to deification.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've heard that "born of a virgin" was a fairly common calling card for a deity. I cannot, however, produce any actual references, so it may be entirely hearsay.

I think you'll find it's hearsay.

Quote:

I do know that death and resurrection was a common god motif, though.

Depends on what you mean by "common", of course. It's not as prevalent as some people believe - especially in the ANE.

Quote:

Perhaps they can be justified without recourse to deification, but the definitely seem to point to it, IMO.

Why? You would need to take your cue from Judaism - and yet Judaism does not contain the features to which you refer.

Radcliffe Emerson · 12-19-2002, 06:23 AM

The Methodist minister I conversed with over the summer said he believes Jesus just screwed up. He thinks he went to Jerusalem during Passover to force a confrontation, thinking the masses would join him. When they didn't join him, he was arrested and killed, and that was the end of the story. (That's how Thomas Jefferson's version of the bible ends by the way).

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12-13-2002, 05:10 AM	#131
idiom Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: New Zealand Posts: 49	You have to remeber your frame of reference is different when one asks "what did Jesus sacrifice" God's numba one value is relationship. His relationship with His Son had never been broken. The sacrifice made means little to us because we are surrounded by broken relationships. Jesus' reported words were, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" Second to last thing He said. Apparently it killed Him. Normally ones lives on a cross for 3-5 days.

12-13-2002, 06:55 AM	#132
Stephen T-B Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Leeds, UK Posts: 5,878	The deification of Christ, I suspect, occurred some decades after his death. It required, over the subsequent centuries, the addition of suitable adornments ie the Virgin Birth, the miracles, the Resurrection and a justification for his ignoble death. In this last case the concept of a sacrifice having been made would have fitted in with contemporary religious practice: sacrificing to the gods is as old as the hills - well, nearly - and was well understood in every religion and by every culture. Thus Christ�s death, if interpretted as a sacrifice, would have seemed appropriate, especially in terms of that element of Christ�s message which was beginninvg to be discerned and which involved self sacrifice. This is all quite sophisticated stuff, and it becomes more sophisticated, more mysterious and more intelectually challenging if the �sacrifice� is deemed to have been made on our behalf, for our sins. It becomes part of the New Covenant which Christ introduced. The old one was that you kept to the Law and went to Abraham�s bosom or you didn�t and went to the flames of hell. The New Covenant introduced some flexibility: first of all, you didn�t need to keep to the letter of the Law, but you did need to love God and your neighbour �as yourself,� and while failure to do so would put you into the flames of hell, thanks to Christ and his �sacrifice� on our behalf, repentance is made possible. So we can sin, and because of Christ�s sacrifice, we can repent and go to heaven. Thank you Jesus.

12-13-2002, 08:40 AM	#134
Stephen T-B Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Leeds, UK Posts: 5,878	Good morning! Here in very-gloomy Leeds in very-dank Yorkshire it�s the end of another very-horrible day; in about 25 mins. I shall be putting on my wellington boots, gloves, cap and cycling cape and setting off in the rain and a thin fog through the gleaming rush-hour traffic beneath high yellow sodium street lights to my home up the hill. �Nuff about that. �So the new "god-given" religion...was a new and improved product. It came with a huge "PRICES SLASHED! NO PAYMENT TO MAKE EVER!* LIFETIME WARRANTY!" sticker.� Exactly so, which is why Christianity didn�t always have to be spread by the edge of the sword - though it did usually help.

12-19-2002, 06:23 AM	#138
Radcliffe Emerson Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: the dark side of Mars Posts: 1,309	The Methodist minister I conversed with over the summer said he believes Jesus just screwed up. He thinks he went to Jerusalem during Passover to force a confrontation, thinking the masses would join him. When they didn't join him, he was arrested and killed, and that was the end of the story. (That's how Thomas Jefferson's version of the bible ends by the way).

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