Pat Kelly

AquaVita – I have read your questions and as soon as you ask one that seems to be a genuine enquiry, I will be more than happy to answer you.

Koyaanisqatsi

From whose perspective?

Please, Pat. You're allegedly a mature adult and so are we. Behaving like a child in claiming that your voice has not been heard in the manner you want it to be heard is just not tenable.

You have been repeatedly presented with cogent, intelligent deconstruction and serious consideration of all of your points and presented in kind with eually cogent counter responses, to which you keep trying to stear things to back to your original rhetoric by ignoring the assessment of your position.

We've moved way beyond such things and clearly delineated the salient points in evidence. Why do you think mere reiteration of already addressed and answered and counter-answered points will make your position any less transparent?

You're engaging in childishly simplistic exonerative rhetoric in order to self-rationallize your position. Unlike immature children, no one here is that profoundly gullible or ignorant or vulnerable to your desperate need to blame your own failings on something else, like "society's repressed view of sexuality."

We're talking about the responsibility of a mature adult in relation to their culpability in the actions they knowingly and willingly undertake for their own selfish pleasure. Nobody is fooled by your assertions that an adult is merely a passive participant; a blameless victim of circumstances beyond their control.

Only an imbecile is a victim to circumstances beyond their control. Do you consider yourself an imbecile? I didn't think so, so why continue to behave as if you are championing this perspective?

A mature adult is responsible for his or her actions. An immature child is not. You know this. We know this. So the only question is what actions should be taken to punish or rehabilitate (or just plain help) a mature adult who cannot recognize (cannot recognize) their responsibility?

Trying to erroneously shift the blame onto society's repressive attitudes towards a child's natural sexuality has nothing to do with an adult's responsibility for his or her actions.

Nobody is denying that children are curious about their own sexuality. That has nothing to do with the question. The question is, what to do with an adult who knows this is the case and uses it to their own sexual desires?

Adults have sexual desires; children have sexual desires. Everybody understands that. Adults know what that means; children do not. For an adult to therefore use that given to satisfy their own sexual needs is the issue and nothing else.

We all understand why someone would desperately try to shift focus onto the children--it's part of the sociopathic mindset--but that doesn't fool any of the mature adults here.

I would think that such a blatant, transparent fallacy would be anathema to you, but then I guess I've been giving you way too much credit.

The only issue here is the adult's motives, since they are the only ones with enough experience and maturity to understand what is is they are doing and what obtains from that adult's actions. Constantly pretending that it's all about a child's sexuality and social repression is just pathetically insulting to everyone's intelligence, including your own.

Ok. I accept your mature approach and will treat it intelligently from this point on, without all of the veiled accusations. If you really want to examine this from a mature standpoint, then let's do it as two intelligent, mature adults.

That is a very bold and unsubstantiated claim. Upon what do you base this claim? Personal experience? Anecdotal evidence? Case study?

Provide the specifics. You want to be treated like an adult? Then act like one and support your claim.

An immature child does not have the rational, intellectual and experiencial ability to process such a claim. It implies that children are just as mature and experienced as you are regarding the complexities of sexual interaction.

You're a married man (or, presumably, were once) so you know damn well what we're talking about.

If a drunk woman, for example, who is my own age (37) approaches me for sex, is it then incumbent upon me to therefore have sex with her or should I take into consideration that her judgement has been impaired through intoxication and act in a mature manner by understanding that her motivations for sex are not made out of sound, rational judgement?

Remember that we're talking mature adult to mature adult.

What you've posted so far implies that I should take advantage of her impaired judgment in order to satisfy my own desires.

Is that the action of a mature adult?

If you can't answer that most basic of questions, then you are incapable of making any tenable assertions regarding a child's sexuality.

The question is not about somebody else's sexuality; the question is about your own sexuality and whether or not you take responsibility for your actions.

Do you? Do you take full responsibility for your own sexual actions or not?

Intergenerational informed, experienced sex! You consistnetly skate your own responsibility.

Why? Why do you do this?

Again, as a mature adult to another mature adult, why do you consistenly avoid addressing your own culpability in regard to your own sexuality?

Because society is to blame for your responsibility? Even you must now see the pathetic quality of such a transparent rationalization.

Which is why none of that has any bearing on the actual question.

What is the adult's responsibility? Stand up for once in this thread and actually detail responsibility for the adult's sexuality in the exact same manner that you continuously imply society is not doing in regard to a child's sexuality.

Ok, both children and adults are sexual beings. What is the adult's responsibility in any of that? None? It's all the child's fault for being sexually curious? It's all society's fault for not being understanding of the adult's needs?

What is the adult's responsibility in any of this?

Demonstrably incorrect (as decades of clinical research proves), but fine. Let's go with your assertion.

Explain for us all the rational interaction of adult/child sex. Give us a scenario in which a mature adult and a comparatively immature child can engage in consensual sexual activity.

Paint us a picture to explain your assertion. In what scenario does a mature adult and a comparatively immature child engage in consensual, mutually understood sex?

You've made your claim (and I'm not even going to demand evidence to support it, since you are demonstrably incapable of doing so). Describe for us all a possible, hypothetical scenario in which a mature adult and a compratively immature child can engage in consensual sexual activity.

Should a mature adult therefore engage in sexual activity with such a child?

Note the operative word is "should."

Consensual, informed sex between equally mature partners?

From whence does this social stigma originate? From a child's sexuality or from an adult's understanding of a child's sexuality and the expectation from society that a mature adult would therefore not engage in a child's sexuality?

Again, you consistently avoid dealing with any responsibility on behalf of the adult.

Why?

Is it your position that an adult has no responsibility?

Well, isn't that convenient? Again, the adult has no responsibility.

Is the adult incapable of responsibility? Is the adult so crippled by a child's sexuality that he or she has no choice but to engage in sex with this hypothetical child?

What about the adult's sexual pleasure? Does the adult not receive sexual pleasure from engagin in sex with the child?

What is the adult's responsibility?

Nodoby is arguing this.

What is the adult's responsibility?

What is the adult's responsibility?

Fine. What is the adult's responsibility?

Granted. What is the adult's responsibility?

Also granted, to a degree irrelevant to the topic at hand. What is the adult's responsibility?

False. It is a clear message that it is socially unacceptable for an adult to engage in such activity with children.

What is the adult's repsonsibility?

Who else benefits from child pornography? Society? The child? The child's parents? Are there royalty checks being sent to the parents?

What is the adult's responsibility?

Incoherent and irrelevant. The restrictions on child pornography are thre in order to stop the manipulation of a child's sexuality for the adult's pleasure.

Or do you believe that children get sexually aroused at looking at pictures of themselves being sodomized?

What is the adult's responsibility?

The "current hysteria" is not over childhood sexuality. It is over the adults who create it for selfish sexual pleasure.

Or are you arguing that children create their own pornography as a benevolent gift to adults?

False.

What is the adult's responsibility?

False. Everything you have posted has been carefully deconstructed and honestly scrutinized for any possible semblance of salience and revealed for what it is; rhetorical rationalization for exonerative purposes of the narcissistic, sociopathic or otherwise delusional mentality.

What is the adult's responsibility?

[quot]MORE: People do not know why they have come to believe and feel so strongly about certain views and are uniformly unable to justify their views with logical or rational arguments.[/quote]

False. I and others gave you more than a fair shake to support your position with substantive evidence and you continue to avoid addressing any of our legitimate arguments and logical reproaches to your position.

You have repeatedly failed to counter them, opting instead for childish reiteration of the same fallacious argument; the hunter becoming the hunted.

I can personally assure you that there is nothing you can post here that won't be rigorously deconstructed with the sharpest intellectual instruments possible.

What is the adult's responsibility?

The reality of a mature adult using a comparatively immature child for the adult's own sexual pleasure?

What is the adult's responsibility?

Then provide us an example in which a mature adult and an immature child engage in mutually consensual, informed, equally mature sexual activity.

We'll wait for you to substantiate your claims. We have the patience and dogged insistence of centuries of intelligent freethinkers at our disposal.

Rational deconstruction of all sides of an issue are our benchmarks.

What is the adult's responsibility?

False. At the core of all laws related to children and sex is the premise that children are innocent and/or ignorant of their own sexuality and therefore should be protected from harm by mature adults who know better and understand what trauma can result from selfishly ignoring these facts for one's own sexual pleasure.

What is the adult's responsibility?

Exceedingly simple and remember you made the challeng.

For anyone else, I would recommend you not read what follows.

You are a child of five years old and sexually curious about your body. An adult recognizes what you are doing and becomes sexually aroused in kind and advances upon you, asking you if you like what you are doing. You say, "yes." They then ask if you like it when they do "this" (whatever "this" is). You say yes, but you're not sure what is happening, since you have no frame of reference and no experience of such a thing to know what is goin on. You only know, as a child, that is is pleasurable. They then erroneously and progressively take this as a sign of mutual consent and proceed toward sodomy.

An adult penis, no matter how small it obviously would be, does not fit properly in your five year old anus. It hurts. You want it to stop. But the adult has taken no responsibility for their actions and has erroneously (sociopathically and/or delusionally) assumed that you wanted what is happening to you. As a child you scream out in pain, which the sociopathic adult ignores or the delusional adult mistakes for cries of pleasure. The adult is no longer a mature, responsible adult, but a predator, taking advantage of their indefensible prey for their own sexual pleasure.

Upon ejaculation, you are confused, in pain and most likely bleeding out of your anus, or otherwise severely damaged by the repeated, never before experienced thrusts of a foreign object up your anal cavity. I won't even go into the normal questions of mature sexuality in regard to STD's and the like.

Let's just leave the hypothetical you at five years old lying on your bedroom floor, in pain and confusion after haivng been sodomized by an adult.

Because you are an immature, inexperienced child of five, you have no comprehension of what just happened to you, other than the fact that an innocent game suddenly turned painful and unwanted; in much the same way any adult experience of sodomy can happen.

The adult then whispers in your ear, "This is just our little secret, ok? Come on, I'll give you a big bowl of your favorite cereal. Wasn't that fun?"

To which you, as a confused and still in pain child look up to the mature adult and think that this must have all been ok, because a mature adult did it to you. After all, no adult that you know has ever done anything like this to you before and adults are the ones you have to obey and their the ones who feed you and clothe you and protect you when its dark, so whatever just happened must be ok, in spite of the pain and unneasy feeling that a comparatively simple game somehow got way out of your own league and that slimy sensation in your anus squishing around is so unpleasent, but, ok, I'm going to get a treat and this is a secret between you and an adult! The wonder people who rule your world and tell you when to sleep and when to wake and when to bathe and when to eat and what to do and what not to do....

And then years later, when you're own sexuality really comes into hormonal as well as sensual play (say around your thirteenth birthday), you suddenly find that you don't seem to have the same interest in sex as the other guys you hang out with and that you have trouble dealing with other girls and find yourself looking at your gym coach or your buddies in the locker room, yet you know you're heterosexual. You get excited by women, but your fantasies start centering around anal sex, for some reason, but you don't know why.

And then after years spent in fights and irrational confrontations with authority figures and drug and alcohol abuse for reasons you can't quite comprehend, you find yourself a married man in a dysfunctional relationship, with kids who you should want to protect and love, but there are these urgings...these desires that you can't shake off. There seems to be some sort of hole in your life that your wife notices and your kids are aware of and you can't seem to figure out what's going on.

So you look into therapy and you look into self-help books, but nothing seems to be helping you. Depression takes over and you start fucking up at work; not caring what's going on or why.

And then one day, you discover that your next door neighbor, let's say, just hypotehtically, has been engagin in sexual intercourse with your beautiful, innocent, but estranged twelve year old daughter and you snap! In a rage you find yourself in his home, strangling his neck almost to the point of actually killing him.

And you stop. Hypothetically, of course. You stop. You don't know why until later when you start to prey upon other young children, progressively regressing in ages back and back and back until you find yourself sexually attracted to, let's say, again for the sake of a hypothetical example that you requested, a five year old boy. An innocent, playing with his "pee pee."

And instead of seeking treatment for the psychological damage that was hypothetically inflicted upon you as a five year old boy, you instead find yourself inexplicably standing in a doorway asking the boy if he enjoys what he's doing.

And, again, hypothetically speaking in keeping with your request for a possible scenario in which no violence is involved, you encourage that boy's innocent exploration as the first of many until one day you hypothetically find yourself an older man, desperately attempting to put the blame of everything that happend to you and everything that you have inflicted on others on society's repressed attitudes toward childhood sexuality in a desperate attempt to confess what you've done to people who are intelligent enough to see through all of your hypothetical rationalizations; seeking out, on a subconscious level, someone, somewhere who will be able to destroy your delusions and rationally explain why your hypothetical actions are harmful.

In other more hypothetical words, you come here, where you know intelligent minds will easily and effortlessly bring into the light all that was in darkness.

You hypothetically expose yourself in order to be caught, since you know you are guilty and wish from that hypothetical five year old boy's innocence that none of this would have happened to you, hypothetically speaking, of course.

So you submit yourself again and again and again to intellectual scrutiny of your rationalizations and deliberate obfuscations in order to be revealed to yourself; repeating over and over the same arguments you know subconscously at least, do not hold water and are nothing more than the justifications of a troubled and pained five year old boy, wondering in the dark what happened and why and how it is you can't just take responsiblilty for your own actions and cease causing the same pain you experienced to others.

Hypothetically speaking, of course, and, again in keeping with the request you made.

Already done. Hypothetically.

Assuming I was mature enough to know what that would entail, unknown, since at younger ages, such understanding isn't possible as a logical correlate to the fact that I wouldn't know what psychological harm might obtain prior to engagin in such an act.

Much like fifteen, eighteen, twenty, hell, thirty year old virgins of any type who have not engaged in such an invasive and foreign activity.

But again, the question isn't how would it harm a child so much as it is why an adult wouldn't factor the possible harm into their actions.

How would a child know how to do this without instruction? Why would a child wish to pleasure someone else?

Why? Isn't that the issue?

How can an immature child respond maturely?

"Any and all?" Any and all what sex? Any and all maturely consensual sex? Impossible for an immature child. How can an immature child give consent for something it doesn't know exists unless a mature adult instructs them and leads them into exploring things they didn't know about?

"Alleged?" How the hell can a child who doesn't know what sodomy is give knowledgable consent? How the hell can a child who doesn't know what fellatio or cunnilingus is give knowledgeable consent? How the hell can an immature child even comprehend what a mature adult understands as "consent?"

Spoken with the apparent obstinance and fear of a five year old boy.

Hypothetically speaking, of course.

Koyaanisqatsi

I'll second that.

What two "people" do or what a mature adult and an immature child do?

Do you consider youself equivalent to a child?



What has maturity got to do with this?

You're out of your mind! People are people and sex is sex!

What's wrong with sex?

Dance, monkey, dance!

FBI give you a call?

And why do you think that is? And what responsibility does that therefore entail for the next adult who recognizes such behavior?

I see....so it's a qualitative thing involving nothing more than the size of a predator's penis...

Fascinating.

Don't worry, that's easily factored out by the obivous logical contradiction that a child would not have the requisite knowledge base to fully comprehend such a selection.

Unless, of course, that unfortunate child was repeatedly and extensively raped over time in various, changing positions by the pedophile, sociopath rapist.

You do the hokey pokey and you turn yourself around. That's what it's all about!

Hey!

Mulder and Scully are right now lubing up your backside, eh?

Fan-f*cking-tastic.

And this is "usually" determined how? By the immature child saying, "yes, I like that," in the same way he or she might say, "yes, I like that" when being fed cherry flavored industrial poisons?

Well what do you know? You have finally come out of your own closet.

Congratulations. I'm only sad you didn't come to this reallization of your own volition and are right now desperately trying to cover your tracks.

Ding, dong. ATF calling...

Then that wouldn't be called "sex," would it? That would be called "molestation" or "forced or coerced oral sex," which, if I'm not mistaken in New York anyway, carries with it a ten to fifteen year sentence, but nicely played!

Still....say hello to the boys from cellblock "C" for us!



Ahhhhhh! THAT just made my frickin' day!

The Messiah

Why don't you try replacing the word sex with something like tennis,

i.e. consensual tennis, oral tennis, tennisuality and so on.

you may find it easier to answer the original 'what's wrong with sex' question.

beth

I just wanted you to know that I reported you, your posts, and your child porn and child molestation pushing web site to the FBI. Have a nice day!

Hope your cell mates appreciate you as much as we do.

Gurdur

----> Moderators & SecWeb Admin

I would like to request that you direct Pat Kelly to actually answer concrete, justifiable questions, since otherwise it would seem Pat Kelly is not interested in answering the questions, but only in preaching and in denigrating those who disagree with him, something that is unsuitable to a serious forum such as this one.

Pat Kelly

Koyaanisqatsi – Based upon your response I would guess you misunderstood roughly 99% of what I wrote. I know my writing skills are not perfect but there must be some other reason behind your failure to grasp so many of the ideas. I challenged you to site a single explanation of how the experience of sex, void of the extremes of force or violence and void of the severe implications of social rejection, is in any way psychologically harmful to children at any age and you proceeded to detail the rape of a young boy. Why? Your inability to answer my challenge says more than the entirety of your whole post.

Pat Kelly

Blondegoddess – I’m sure the FBI knows where to find me if they are so inclined just like they know where to find you. You have a nice day too.

Pat Kelly

I don’t know about you but I do not have endless amounts of time to devote to this chat. You may have noticed that I appear to be taking on the whole board here. I will answer as many post as I am able and will pay particular attention to those who seem sincere in their questions as opposed to those who just want to dance.

Gurdur

----> Moderators & SecWeb Admin

However, Pat Kelly seems to have a lot of time to writing long posts and denigrations of those who disagree with him.
Since when is say 6 people the whole board ?
Hopelessly exaggerated.
Pat Kelly has not answered my questions to him; moreover, while he insisted he had asked me question, he has so far refused to specify what the question is, so therefore I cannot even answer him.Thios statement would seem to be further evidence that Pat Kelly is not being direct in answering questions, moreover while denigrating questioners.