nXile

Zentraedi, two things:
One,
Perspective is very important in this question, in all questions. You say the human race is reaching for perfection. How else is humankind going to reach for perfection without first making mistakes (how do we know what perfection is, unless there is a model for us to understand)? Thus (big logical jump alert! Didn't want to type it all), that's why "bad things" happen, not because God is a coward, but because God does not coddle us, protect us from ourselves as we "reach for perfection."

Two,
According to you "perfection = boring" and "God = boring" thus God = perfection. Also according to you the process (or challenge as you put it) from not perfect to perfect is ages long (we're nowhere close yet and started thousands of years ago), how does that prove God is a coward or even boring?

Frisch
A question:
If I were to insult your intelligence, what would be the braver response? To show me how intelligent you are? or to not respond at all? In other words, whose problem is it that I think you aren't smart...mine or your's (note: I do not actually think you are not smart, it is not my intent to insult you and if I have, I apologize)?

the typical answer:
I'll make it your problem.

another question:
if there is life after death, and you were past death and liked it, would you stop other death?

another question:
if your son or daughter is going toward a hot stove and you say "Don't touch that, that's hot, you'll burn yourself" but then your child still touches it because you did not physically stop him/her, are you a monster? Or has your child been warned, though did not listen, and thus learned through the process of natural consequences?

it's all about perspective.

and you may say, "But no god talks to me"
and then I may say, "Read the Bible."
Then you may scoff and we'll be right back where we started from.

nXi|e

Shadownought

I'm gonna jump in here.

The point is not that there IS death. The point is that there is WRONGFUL death. If I were in a situation where I know there is a pleasant afterlife, and I had the power to stop death, then I would not stop all death, but I WOULD stop death from murder, earthquakes, or whatever.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the concept of violent injustices. What might I learn through the experience of having my throat slit and my arms cut off?

Even though I think the analogy is flawed, I'll answer it anyway. First of all, yes, letting the kid touch the stove would be a Bad Thing. The Good Thing to do would be to stop them from touching it, and explain why you stopped them. Second, if I were God, then it would be a simple matter for me to imbue all humans with absolute knowledge that putting your hand on a stove will burn your hand and hurt terribly. However, God obviously did not do this, and he obviously doesn't stop people from feeling hot stoves, so that means he wants people to put their hands on hot stoves. (He could even have made it so that hot stoves don't hurt, or that food doesn't need cooking, or that humans don't need to eat at all, or any number of other possibilities... but he didn't!)

Why shouldn't I scoff? There is as much evidence for talking donkeys and the dead returning to life as there is for Jedi Knights and firebreathing dragons. Do you believe either one of them exists?

[ December 12, 2002: Message edited by: Shadownought ]</p>

nXile

A response to each paragraph:
thank you, Shadow, for jumping in.

I need to know, then, if this is about wrongful death, what wrongful death is, and what you are using to determine what is right and is wrong, please (warning! that's going to be another thread all by itself).

What does learning have to do with violent injustices? Much. The saying goes "History repeats itself" thus we are to learn to recognize the patterns so that we can step in and intervene. Let not the many die in vain, learn from the violent injustices that take place EVERY DAY! How violent injustices might help you, Shadow, I can't say because I'm not God. One guess, is that by not having any arms, you may learn to truly appreciate what it means to HAVE arms.

Nope, God did not instill in us to KNOW everything, including "That stove is hot, don't touch it or it will hurt." You are correct. Why? Because we are not God, thus we are not all-knowing. At least we have the facilities to learn though.

Do I believe that fire-breathing dragons and talking donkeys exist? Not really. But they aren't telling me to not touch the hot stove, either...

nXi|e

Shadownought

Well, let's say that wrongful death is killing someone who doesn't want to die, and that goes for both humans and gods doing the killing (old age doesn't count). There are probably holes in that definition, but it should be fine for now.

<strong> Right, other people can sometimes learn from some violent injustices, but the reason I said your analogy to the kid putting his hand on the stove wasn't quite right was because it's not a violent injustice or something that can teach things to other people.

The thing is, if we learn from past injustices and violent crimes to help us prevent future ones, that doesn't explain why Yahweh let them occur in the first place. If there was no possibility of murder, we wouldn't need to try and predict and prevent them.

<strong> Well, I meant for that example to mean "violent extreme murders." If I didn't have arms, I surely would appreciate their uses- but why would Yahweh randomly destroy people's arms to teach them to appreciate them? Why some people and not others? Did he know that certain people would not have sufficient appreciation for their arms? I don't really see what be achieved by Yahweh allowing someone to lose their arms.

<strong> We don't need to be all-knowing. God should have easily been able to program things like this into our instincts.

<strong> Er...
Um, what?

Frisch

nXi|e If God wanted to teach us good ethics, I think he could have found better ways then letting us to our own devices. I fail to see the lesson in millions of people dying terible deaths. If thats a life lesson, then I want to drop that class.

While most problems are man made, most systems of morality require you to help out your neighbor if he is in trouble. If you see a child in the road with a speeding car coming to hit him, the only moral thing to do would be to attempt to prevent the disaster, if in fact you deem the course of action safe enough. Why do we pussy around and make excuses for God? It seems pointless to me.

Answerer

Well, I don't think man has learned anything from the history. Just look at the flaws performed by man in the past century and terrorist attacks recently. All boil down to the fact that mankind inherits the almost same attitudes and errors as before.

nXile

Frisch and Shadow,
Tthis is what I'm hearing/reading/deciphering from you:

Bad things happen here on Earth. If God were good, then God would not allow those bad things to happen. If one of us were God, as God we would not let bad things happen. Therefore, God is not all-powerful and is a coward, OR there is no God at all as proved by "bad things" not being stopped by a "good being."

I know I've simplified and there's always danger in that. However, that is the main point I see...Am I (mis)understanding the main point?

Shadownought

Hmm... I suppose that's close enough. My problem is that I can't reconcile the idea of an omnipotent, omniscient, totally loving and benevolent god who still allows atrocities (both natural and man-made) to occur. Therefore, I believe that either the Christian god does not exist, or he is lacking one of the above three qualities that he is usually assigned.