Viti

There seems to be a certain group of people (immature young assholes with small penises) among whom it is fashionable to have aggressive, mean dogs. We see them here as well.

lisarea

I've told this story here before, but I think it bears repeating.

Long about six years ago, my son was attacked (unprovoked--he didn't even know the dog was there, and it came up behind him) by a Lab mix.

He almost lost an ear, had a puncture wound less than an inch from his eye, and ended up with some horrific number of stitches, and many trips to the hospital trying to find the right balance between getting enough antibiotics into him to stave off infections, and not getting so much in him he vomited himself to dehydration. It was a horrible experience, and I would never wish it on anyone else. I also would not take a risk of anything like this happening again.

In the days following the attack, I had to deal with hospital staff, the police, etc. any number of times. Almost without exception, they would refer to it as a "pit bull attack."

The dog was NOT a pit bull. He wasn't close. He was a Labrador Retriever, with maybe some kind of shepherd mixed in there.

I've often wondered how many other "pit bull attacks" reported in the media are not pit bulls at all.

And even those that are seem to be largely a matter of fashion. When I was a kid, everyone was afraid of German Shepherds, then Dobermans. As the media coverage of 'violent' breeds increases, people who WANT violent dogs will seek those breeds out, breed them irresponsibly, train them to be aggressive, and treat them cruelly.

If we outlaw pit bulls today, these people will find some other breed to single out for this behavior. The problem is not the dogs, nor is it really specific breeds. It's people.

Why do I care? I care mostly because, some years after my son's attack, I feel deeply and hopelessly in love with an American bulldog at the local animal shelter. American bulldogs are generally considered to be the bulldog breed with which they bred fox and rat terriers to create pit bulls. So, he's like a pit bull, but he's bigger. When he yawns, he looks like a crocodile or something.

I've had him for a few years now, and while I would never leave any dog alone with any small child no matter what, I'd trust him more than I'd trust any other dog I've known. He's gentle, sweet, funny, affectionate, loving, and just a great guy all around. The worst injury he's done to anyone is that he tends to batter people with his enthusiastic tailwagging. He has popped a couple of toddlers that way, but that's what you get for walking with your face in a dog's ass, I figure.

And beyond simply not being a dangerous animal, he makes people happy. He inspires my now 17 year old tough-guy son to make baby talk. I credit dogs in large part for the fact that my son, despite appearances, is a considerate and nurturing person who genuinely cares about others. When I take my dog for walks, we generally have to stop numerous times for visits with his adoring public. People spontaneously tell him they love him. They KISS him. They hug him. He just plain makes people happy. That's what dogs, IMO, are really for.

Dogs enrich the quality of people's lives every day. Yes, sometimes, even good dogs go bad, I suppose. But there are risks to everything, really, and to me, that's a pretty minor one compared to the vast improvement in quality of life that having dogs around affords us.

And as a side observation, dogs are unique in that they've evolved alongside humans, and as such, are designed as a sort of companion species. I think that's just impossibly cool.

MzNeko

Have you considered that if cats were much bigger, say weighing in at about 50 pounds or so (still smaller than large dogs), that they'd be damned dangerous?

They are somewhat less domesticated than dogs. They have definite ideas about who should be in charge. They're less predictable. They sense fear too. And they can climb.

Mind you, I love cats, but sometimes when wrestling our biggest resident feline (15 pounds and it's all muscle), I have had the thought occur... "What if he didn't care if he hurt me?* What if he were medium-dog size?"

*There is a definite difference between a cat that is merely struggling to get away and one that is so angry/scared/upset that it doesn't care if it has to go through you.

shome42

Whenever a cat looks at me, something in it's eyes says, "hehe, you silly human, you think I would be violent with you? I don't need to be violent with you because you'll willingly be my servant, bringing me my Whiskas and water...I own you..."

I'm with the Egyptians on this one.

DarkBronzePlant

LOL
I love cats too; my fiancee and I currently own probably the best cat in the world. But I had a friend who told me that the reason he didn't like cats is because, if they were big enough, you know they'd eat you without thinking twice. Somehow I couldn't disagree with him.

manderguy

Amen.

There's also a contingency of people who want a "vicious" dog for home security. I live in a relatively depressed urban area, and talk to people every now and then who have these grand but stupid guard dog ideas. They want to get a pit bull (it's always a pit bull) and basically be emotionally cruel to it, so it's aggressive. One guy said he'd keep it in his basement and not let it meet other people. Another guy wouldn't let me pet his cute little pup since his idea was that only he should show it affection (makes me wonder if he has friends or family). For pack animals, that's simply cruel.

I've tried to explain that serious dog trainers simply don't train guard dogs that way. That the trainers suggest getting a friendly dog, and making sure it stays that way. I try to explain how a properly trained guard dog represents little to no threat since it knows when it's "on the job" while their dog is likely to get them into court.

It never seems to sink in with these idiots.

Farren

Well,

everyones getting all warm and cosy and moving to a common center here so I write this reluctantly, but....

(...and I've stated my impeccable credentials when it comes to being an animal lover not and animal hater...)

I've owned, in the course of my life, a Doberman, a Bull terrier and a Rotweiler, and all were fairly aggressive dogs (although the bully was also hilarious). Its always been my own and my family's habit to get dogs from animal shelters (and yes, I am certain of their breeds) so each of them came with a history, which definitely mitigates judgement.

Nonetheless, that has to be offset against the other breeds I've lived with from same shelters who had far less aggressive tempraments. My instincts tell me to trust the numbers.

A fair case has been made on this thread for causes of bias from insurance agencies, et al. In my personal experience however a lot of vets, trainers and breeders concur. We've got a stack of pet mags here and there's a lot of consensus about certain breeds being much more aggressive, nervous and/or irrational than others.

What I find scary in the case of a pit bull is that the breed it is a pure fighting dog. Not a guard dog, not a retriever, not a sled puller or a pointer. It has been bred with the sole purpose of killing another dog as quickly and viciously as possible, without guidance or provocation. It has not been bred for obedience, sanity or thoughtfulness.

I've seen a pit bull fighting and have never seen such raw savagery in my life. The closest I've seen was late one night when I found myself sitting in the dirt in my pajamas, grimly holding two dogs apart and yelling for assistance while my hand dripped blood where my bull terrier of several years had accidentally savaged me in her fenzy - and that didn't come close to a seeing a pit bull tear apart another dog.

The state of mind of a fighting dog is one of purified hatred when it enters such a frenzy. I'm probably going to be accused of anthropomorphising animals but my personal take on that is that its obvious we share common signals with other large pack mammals and have a reasonable amount of empathy.

Now imagine being inside this animals head. Any breed so quick to snap and ready to enter an unholy state of pure hatred would, because of our common physiology, share many of the characteristics of a human in a similar state.

For reference points, speak to a migraine sufferer, a diabetic, someone with extremely high blood pressure or bad PMS. Its not pleasant. In fact its a big nasty to be walking around with that level of ambient aggression most of the time. And there are attack dogs and fighting dogs that are bred to be that way.

What I'm saying is certain breeds are bred to be a hell of a lot less happy with existence that others. Its utopian to think that nature fairly assigns an equal potential for pleasure and pain in all creatures. Nature abound with species that appear to have suffering imposed on them as a survival mechanism.

The tiny male black widow spider (and this is a stretch but I'm illustrating a possibility not asking that you premise you acceptance on the example) shits his pants every time he wants to get his rocks off because he has to flee in terror as soon as his larger spouse's instinct to eat him kicks in after he's done his duty. Nature is not fair. Not all creatures are equally happy being in their own skin.

I'm definitely feel we should preserve rather than destructively intervene with non-domesticated creatures, simply because I feel our lack of understanding and empathy with these creatures makes these judgements difficult to make without much more familiarisation.

But I do feel, where we have bred a breed to experience more anger and tension than pleasure throughout their lives, where we have tipped the balance, we are perpetuating suffering by continuing these breed lines. I see no fault, as an animal lover, in terminating the breed.

What I'm NOT advocating is killing existing members of those breeds. Since I believe that even creatures born with a negative bias can find happiness in the care of loving, attentive and knowlegeable owners, I would not ask owners of these animals to kill their companions. I think every living dog deserves to be granted a chance at compassionate care and happiness if this is at all possible.

However, if we simply stopped breeding breeds that so obviously have serious issues, there would be less pain and suffering in the world in future.

The issue of certain kinds of people always wanting and seeking out the vicious breeds is one that has to be addressed. Obviously some will continue to come up with new breeds with the same characteristics to get around laws.

However, it should be noted that it requires record keeping and time to come up with a new breed with consistent characteristics, and is not as simple as making a home made bomb or something. The policing and cyclic amendment of such laws, if the principle is excepted, is not insurmountable or impractical.

shome42

Farren,

I agree. In my peronsal opinion, certain breeds of dogs shouldn't be allowed, but I realize that legislating a ban against certain breeds would be completely impractical.

Getting certain people to give up their right to own a certain breed would be like getting certain people to give up the right to certain guns. It just isn't going to happen. As with guns, there is a large group out there with a serious emotional attachment to dogs. They're just not going to give them up.

MzNeko

Heh, try serving dinner late sometime...

Yeah, me too... sigh... I am laaaaaame for my kitties.

brighid

By being careful whom I allow in my home, educating new people about proper dog etiquette and closely supervising my dog in new situations. A properly trained dog will not disobey a command from the alpha, nor will a properly trained dog attack even when provoked. The next time you get a chance go to a Personal Safety Dog/Schutzhund demonstration and then come and tell me that properly trained dog, even under extreme circumstances is anything you or anyone else has to worry about.

A responsible pet owner should always be in control of his/her dog when new or strange people are in their presence. I don't worry about other peoples ignorance around my dog because I am in control. I won't allow certain situations to happen in public and my home and yard are very controlled areas. If you enter my home or yard without my permission you are very likely taking your life and limb into your own hands. This is the way it should be.

Brighid