Typhon

Have you ever looked back on an abusive, jealous, emotionally unstable love/crush and realized how lucky you were to get out alive?

.T.

If god exists, I want a restraining order.

[ June 06, 2002: Message edited by: Typhon ]</p>

David M. Payne

Gemma, still waiting for a reply to this question. Of course if there is no authoritative reference for this free will doctrine showing it came from God, just say so.

OK Gemma, fair enough, I applaud you for admitting the truth, the free will argument isn’t in the bible. So lets take the obvious next step, who made the free will doctrine up? Was it God? That is what you say in your post above, isn’t it? Where might we find his word on this, if not in the bible? If it was “created” or “discovered” by some saint or Pope etc, who was it, and did they get the argument directly from God and just pass it on to the rest of us? Or did it nebulously appear out of thin air one day a long time ago? Perhaps it was created to deflect the argument of Gods moral responsibility for /inability to prevent, evil, here:
“In a formulation of the problem attributed to the Greek philosopher Epicurus (341-270 BC) (see Epicureanism), either God can prevent evil and chooses not to (and therefore is not good) or chooses to prevent it and cannot (and therefore is not all-powerful).” (From MS Encarta)
Can you site a source for this doctrine that has been used to excuse God from all evil done in his name?
I even more humbly await you enlightenment on this question. Hopefully you will be the first theist here to produce an authoritative reference for this doctrine.

David

Gemma Therese

David,

The mere fact you are posting on this board, is enough evidence of "free will" for me.

Gemma Therese

DRFseven

Me: How can people believe what they don't believe?

And I can say, "All hail Rosemary's baby", or "I believe in Peter Pan Peanut Butter", but nothing I say will make me believe what I don't believe. The only thing I am able to believe is what I believe, a tautologous statement that illustrates the fallacy in the idea that we are free to choose what we believe. Though we make choices, those choices are all subject to the reasoning structures we have painstakingly built through life experiences and without which we cannot form thoughts. Certainly we are capable of change, but, again, only through experiential thought process.

Truthfully, I have wanted to (I started losing my religion shortly after I became an adult), but at this moment in time, no. However, I have explained to you that I tried desperately for a while to retain belief, but it was useless; there is no way to consciously outwit one's own reasoning processes.

Gemma Therese

DRF,

You have not discontinued your search for God. You are posting on an atheist message board.

Gemma Therese

Gemma Therese

Typhon,

It's late here, so I can only address one of your questions.

I thank God every day that I was born (adopted, really) into the family I was born into, since they were Christian. I count this as one of my greatest blessings.

Gemma Therese

DRFseven

1. So, evidently, you realize you don't know how we can believe something we don't believe, since you still have not answered the question. Does this mean you are admitting that we can't choose what to believe?

2. What does posting on an atheist message board have to do with searching for God? Does my posting here also prove that I am still searching for that perfect shade of green bedspread (Silver Eucalyptus) that I used to have but can't find anymore?

Liquidrage

The presupposition of free-will has hindered physics for a 100 years and set back one particular branch 50 years.

Sorry. Just wanted to talk about free-will for a sec.
I'll let you all get back to demanding answers from someone that has none.

David M. Payne

The mere fact that you can’t answer my question is enough evidence that I have made my point, and you have not made yours. Thank you for your implied acquiescence in this matter.

David

The Messiah

quote:
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Originally posted by The Messiah:
Quote: Gemma Theresa
Typhon,
I am not intelligent enough to follow your questions.

Gemma Therese

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I hope this is a humble admission and not a patronising one.

This is exactly the conditions required for religion to propogate. When people are insecure or unsure of themselves, particularly children, thats when they strike. Its horrendously cruel and the biggest obstacle to human happiness in existence.


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Hmmm, I can't win, can I? I'm either a mindless, unintelligent person, the perfect victim of religion, following a God who does not exist, and whose existence was created to extinguish any hope of people like me being happy ... or I am a patronizing, arrogant, "holier-than-thou" Catholic.

What a bleak future!

Gemma Therese

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Many intelligent people follow a religion and seem pretty comfortable with leaving all the characteristics of intelligence behind when it comes to their beliefs. This is precisely the point, if a religion is true then surely it is robust enough to be defended. It seems to me that you have ducked every genuine question and not very convincingly at that. The bible itself was written by people who lived in an era of comparative ignorance, why is it so difficult to see that they were simply writing stories to explain what they could not understand. Remember, the vast majority of the contributors thought the world was flat.

Indeed a world without a benevolent god does sound bleak but only if we do not replace this concept with something else to rejoice about. Heaven is a man made concept and to admit this would give us a new aspiration. Holding onto the ideals of people that were truely at the mercy of the cycles and moods of the planet would undoubtedly felt that they were subject to the whims of a god. Why continue to believe what they believed?