Veil of Fire

So since we don't know HOW it works, it must not work at all, right?

Or as the Gemma Therese of skepticism would say "Placebo Effect!!" That IS how this sort of thing works, right?

MadMordigan

So since we don't know HOW it works, it must not work at all, right?

So since you don't know HOW the Brooklyn Bridge came into my possesion, it must not be mine to sell to you at all, right?

Jeremy Pallant

I'm not so sure. I rather think it's getting ready to start up again...and if it does, I'll shut down this thread. Wait. Did I say that out loud?

sentinel00

We have yet to establish that it does, indeed, work. I just find it funny that we seem to have no end of supposed science that supports acupuncture, yet when I ask serious questions about the mechanisms at work, we get double talk and appeals to bigger questions.

Glory

When was the last time you tried?

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This is relevant...how?

</strong>

He proved that he could do what he said he do. He did not prove that he knew how he did it, assuming that what he did would be physically impossible for someone who did not practice the mystical aspect of martial arts.

</strong>

He knows and can explain how he did what he did physically yet still insists that there is something invisible at work.

Visualization and meditation are well known psychiatric techniques which help people achieve their goals and perform better. They are not mystical in any way.

A BIG part of it. The point is your inabillity to explain doesn't imply that it is a mystical phenomenon. Nobody knows exactly why or how intrauterine devices work. So far I haven't met anyone who thought that it was magic keeping me from getting pregnant.

Glory

[ September 21, 2002: Message edited by: Glory ]</p>

Veil of Fire

So since we don't know how IUDs work, it must be the placebo effect. According to Kally and MM. Isn't it nice to know your own brain can keep you from getting pregnant just because you have a bit of wire someplace it shouldn't be?

Sentinel: The mechanisms hasn't been explained yet. The fact that it works well enough for insurance companies to cover it as a valid treatment is a bit harder to argue. How long did it take us to explain the mechanism of Asprin, compared to how long people had been using it? Was it just the placebo effect that made people who drank willow bark tea feel better when they were ascribing it to the power of Gaia?

We don't know everything. There are still things we could find out. We're not gods in and of ourselves yet when it comes to scientific knowledge. Why do you assume that we would know the mechanism just automatically if the practice worked?

We don't quite know how quantum teleportation works either, but we've observed it. But since we don't know the mechanism, it must just have been the placebo effect that made us THINK we saw a positron existing in two places at the same time. Right?

Hell, for that matter, we don't even know the mechanism behind abiogenesis! Placebo effect caused amino acids in the primordial soup to combine into a protein?

Veil of Fire

So what's the mechanism behind how they work?

Monkeybot

Well, obviously I can't really comment on your personal experiences, since I wasn't there. While I respect that you've had these experiences, I'm not totally satisfied, since -

a.) Surely you must realize that your personal experiences are only that? While I have no wish to devalue your experience, nor am I dismissing it out of hand, you must realize that most of us require stronger evidence than "Corwin got thrown by a Japanese girl half his size." While anecdotal evidence is a good jumping off point and can help to better explain an argument, it isn't the soundest of evidence, since it hasn't been quantified. What proportion of people have experienced X phenomenon? Under what conditions? These sorts of questions are not answered well by anecdotes, which is why many people require stronger evidence (for example, double blind studies).

b.) You haven't established a link between this "chi" and the "chi" that is supposedly involved in acupuncture. Nor have you provided a satisfactory explanation of what "chi" is. Now, you're probably going to say again that you aren't sure what it is, but you know it's there, since you've felt it. I could just as easily counter that I've never felt it, so I really don't know it's there.

c.) You repeatedly claim that you "don't know how it works, but it does," when this may not be the case with the topic at hand, acupuncture. As I've tried to express, there really isn't conclusive evidence that acupuncture works. As Noise pointed out near the beginning of the thread, a double blind study with 85% effectiveness (for example) would be pretty convincing, but no one has really produced that so far.

[ September 21, 2002: Message edited by: Monkeybot ]</p>

sentinel00

Veil of Fire:


Are you seriously arguing that chi exists?

Glory

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Why are you telling me what someone else said? I thought this was a reply to my post. Please show me at least enough respect to refrain from waisting my time with petty and cheap shots aimed elsewhere. BTW, your comments constitute a straw man. Apparantly this placebo effect thing is the only thing you feel comfortable refuting. You are not only doing a poor job at it, you are ignoring the salient points of the discussion. Try to stay on topic.

Glory