Goliath

peteyh,

I don't believe that for an instant.

Sincerely,

Goliath

Goliath

GeoTheo,

Unsupported assertion.

Sincerely,

Goliath

luvluv

I thought you'd like that one, Goliath .

Folks, if you've never been poor, uneducated, and a minority living in a civillization with odds stacked against you, then perhaps you can't relate. My grandparents were poor sharecroppers in the Jim Crow South and they are among the most religiously committed people I have ever known. The same holds for most black people I know: I would argue that blacks are a lot less likely, in this society, to be atheists than whites and I think historically that is because God is the only point that we have been able to pin our hopes on. You can argue about how you would feel, but you don't know how you would feel unless you are in that situation. I can tell you firsthand because I have seen people in those situations and am not totally unknowledgable about the historic plight of oppressed peoples in America. The hope for a better future is all that keeps a lot of people going. Logic, in and of itself, cannot give people hope for a better future.

By the way, I didn't say anything about any specific religion, I was talking about hope. There is no hope in atheism, but there is some in Christianity. Hope is not true, it is not factual, it is not based in anything verifiable or logical. It is simply a belief about the nature of the future; specifically, that it will be good. Hope is an irrational belief, but it is necessary.

Also, the people who were the most religious did quite all right in leading movements against the conditions of their poverty and degradation in this country. In fact, the religious (and specifically the Christians) were the main people leading the charge. It was hope that allowed people like MLK to believe in the basic good of all people (an illogical assumption if there ever was one) and to believe that society could change for the better. MLK said often himself that it was, at times, only his faith in God and the hope that that produced that enabled him to go on in trying circumstances. I think that could be said of the whole movement: it likely would have failed if it lacked the religious component that offered them a shared framework, a belief in a God who was on the side of justice (and thus the belief that if they continued to struggle their victory was inevitable), and a foundation for their hopes for a better life.

Logic cannot produce any of this.

luvluv

Lady Shea

This is true of about 90% of the 6 billion people who live on the planet. Do they exist? Atheism, ultimately, is just an opinion like any other opinion. It may be the correct opinion, it may be an incorrect one. Ultimately, it cannot even honestly offer people the notion that it is true.

tronvillain

I have never seen atheism as offering anything other than the truth. Why I became an atheist was not because it offered me anything, but because it was apparent that God did not exist.

peteyh:
Is it really such a terrible change? You have to make your own meaning and enjoy the time you have. You do your best to influence events, and you deal with tragedies as they occur as best you can instead of wasting time on your knees praying. Eventually you and everyone you know will eventually die, so you make the most of the time you have them rather than putting it off to a time you won't have. It's a little harder, but it may also be a little better.

Goliath

Luvluv,

Tsk, tsk. Have you already forgotten the fact that atheism is a lack of belief?

Atheism is not an opinion.

Atheism is not a belief.

Atheism is not a finitely generated Abelian group.

Atheism is merely a lack of belief that any gods exist.

Sincerely,

Goliath

bonduca

luvluv, my background is poor, uneducated, and of mixed racial heritage (in the same South you refer to). I found no comfort in an invisible god who allowed poverty, disease, and suffering, yet demanded loyalty and worship. I have found more peace in a world without the sky daddy who could save us all, and will save us all, really, he will, someday...if we just believe...any day now...going...going...

Gone.

tronvillain

Actually, I suspect that almost any atheist who so labels themself believes that God does not exist rather than simply lacking a belief in God. This is not to say that such a belief is absolute (like faith), for most of them would probably be open to evidence to the contrary.

Clutch

Goliath,

I believe you omitted that atheism is not six raccoons in a suitcase, nor a raft of toasted newts on a stick.

Petey,

There's no point talking about theism as if it's univocal. Ironically, the less practical influence one's religion has on one's life, the less one gains by rejecting it for a lie. But genuine beliefs issue in *actions*, and influence one's other beliefs and desires as well. So the relative advantages of atheism depend on what your theism is to start with.

If your theism tells you that the Earth is 6000 years old, then rejecting it saves you from a priori ruling out acceptance of vast swathes of rational beliefs -- ones that are extremely efficacious in context.

If your theism tells you that you have to hate homosexuals, even if you'd be happier not hating anyone who's never harmed you, then atheism frees you from a hateful and perverse morality.

If your theism tells you looking at peeled bark makes goats have spotted kids; that sex out of wedlock is to be punished by death; that the Earth recently stopped rotating for hours on end; that humans can turn into salt; that donkeys can speak, humans fly up in the sky if they are gods, and sticks turn into snakes; that raping women and slaughtering children is morally perfect, hence that evil is good and good evil...

... then isn't the answer to your question obvious?

luvluv

You would be what is known as an exception. As a general rule, people who live under dire economic and social circumstances tend are much more reticent to abandon hope in favor of logic than their more affluent counterparts who do not depend on hope quite so primarily.

Even if atheism is a belief, instead of a lack of beliefs, it still cannot present itself as true. A belief that there is no gods is formed from the evidence a person has been exposed to. I believe, primarily, on the basis of personal experience which cannot be shared. I say all this to say, you cannot expect people to abandon their hopes in favor of a proposition you form on the basis of incomplete evidence which offers them no hope and which, in the end, may be false. Atheism really has nothing to work with in poor, desperate communities. Again, I am not offering this as a reason to believe or not to believe, I am simply stating that physical poverty represents a formidable barrier against materialism and pure logic. People living in desperate situations need hope.

[ July 16, 2002: Message edited by: luvluv ]</p>