Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Evil Jello · 06-14-2002, 08:43 AM

There

"I was dead for millions of years before I was born and it never inconvenienced me a bit."
- Mark Twain

wildernesse · 06-14-2002, 10:26 AM

As a Christian, I can’t really respond to how atheists feel about death. But, I think that theists and atheists alike could be asked this question and you’d get similar answers. How do you deal with the concept of death without being despondent?

Even as a Christian who believes that there will be life after death, I wonder about the pointlessness of life. After I’m dead, I’m gone! There isn’t anything of this left! My body will rot and who knows what will happen to whatever is left of me. So how do I enjoy this time now?

And for me, my answer to this is to be conscious of what I can do to help others, enjoy today, get the best out of life, think and then act on those thoughts. Live a full life—full of relationships with other people, full of imagination, full of happiness. Don’t dwell on the end of life, dwell on the life.

--tiba

Radcliffe Emerson · 06-14-2002, 01:39 PM

I honestly don't think about death. I can't avoid it, it's going to happen no matter what, so I just go along and take everything a day at a time.

sullster · 06-14-2002, 02:35 PM

Our impending personal extinction is troubling to all thinking humans. Yet, I feel that non-believers can live a more realistic life than after-life believers.

When we reject the after-life fanatasy, we are forced to look at life as an end in itself and make decisions based on that knowledge. We are made stronger by facing the terror of our personal destruction without the consolation of an utterly nonsensical after-life fantasy. The world around us becomes more real, the horrors of the world and the beauty of the world.

All the after-life ideas of the religions are no consolation to me and actually cause more desolation than the idea of personal extinction. To not be "me" forever, is far better than being "me", in some hallucinogenic after-life forever. Heaven,hell and having my consciousness forever are far more terrifying than extinction.

Veil of Fire · 06-16-2002, 01:25 PM

"Physically there is very little difference between them and us. We all come into being, replicate, and die."

There. Right there. That's the whole crux on my consternation.

What's the POINT?

If it doesn't matter one whit whether I die tomorrow or in 80 years, why should I care about anything? If everyone's going to eventually cease to exist, why should making them cease to exist a little earlier be necessarily a bad thing? Espcially if it makes my pointless life a bit more fun/bearable? It's almost as mind-boggling to me as the Calvinist doctrine of predestination... if there's no point, why care? If I'm just here to reproduce, why should I care if someone rapes me, or uses me in a one-night stand? Genes still get transferred.

We humans make ourselves out to be sooo important.. we build fancy buildings and fancy governments to make ourselves feel special... and it's all gonna be dust before it actually has a chance to contain universal significance.

I just... there has to be a POINT. Everything in nature has a reason, except life itself. There's a reason porcupines have quills, there's a reason snakes have venom, there's a reason Longleaf Pines are resistant to fire... only life itself, reproduction, seems to have no purpose. No point. It exists solely to perpetutate itself to no appreciable consequence?

I don't think I could buy that without becoming suicidal ("what's it matter? Why bother?") or homicidal ("He's already got a kid, and he pissed me off, there's no real reason NOT to just stab him in the head with my icepick...").

****
"Why is it that almost all the people who "remember" some past life remember that they were kings, queens or nobles of some sort?"

Oh, hell yes. I know exactly what you mean. You have no CLUE how many ex-Cleopatras or ex-Atlantean Royalty I run into. I swear, Merlin HAD to have Dissasociative Identity Disorder with about 30k personalities, for the number of people claiming him as their past life. Just ONCE I want to meet someone who says "Oh, I was a midieval spy... but I was pretty lousy. I got my head cut off by some petty noble my third week on the job."

****

"If "you" are reincarnated with a different personality, different identity, and absolutely no memory of your previous existence, can it really be said that *you* survive in any useful sense?"

That's a good question. Perhaps conciousness itself is worthy of "you" status? I dunno.

****

"Many people like to claim that the information has just been transferred somewhere else. If that were so, there should be some evidence of it. There is none. It takes energy and a medium (not the supernatural kind) to transfer and retain information."

Well, I did read somewhere that the body weighs less by like 1.4 pounds immediately after the moment of death... but I couldn't find it or quote it for you, and snopes probably already has a debunking article on it... so, barring a scientific discovery of Jung's Collective Unconcious, or AEther, or an Astral Plane, then yeah, you have a point.

Perchance · 06-16-2002, 02:32 PM

Actually, you could say that that's the point: that it has no point.

Sorry. Just being flippant

.

But seriously, why does something HAVE to have "a point?" Sunsets don't have "a point." Even the earth going around the sun, or the stars going supernova, or the mouse dying beneath the talons of the owl, doesn't have a "point."

Is it "cause" that you mean?

Then yes, I would agree that many, many things have causes, perhaps not everything (I don't believe we know enough about the universe yet to state with 100% certainty that everything has a cause... but then, I don't believe that of anything). And it may not be easy to see the cause of certain behaviors, or why some people choose to kill others, or why some people choose to end their own lives. But that doesn't mean that they don't have causes.

As for the examples you listed...

Well, I suppose you could say that yes, plants and animals adapt to certain environments, and that is the point. But what is the point, then (if you want to take it a level deeper) of those environments existing in the first place? A deer lives in a forest. It is adapted to live there (keen senses, fleetness of foot, herding behavior that protects the weaker members, and so on). But why is the forest there? Why did the deer adapt to the forest in the first place? Why does it live in the forest at all?

Those things have causes. You can explain them by means of evolutionary theory, biology, botany, and geology. But I don't think you can really say they have a point.

"Point," in this sense, seems to mean not only "cause" or "ultimate destination," but "ultimate destination that makes sense to humans and is agreeable to the human mind." I don't see why anything in the universe (including human behavior) has to have this as a precondition of its existence. Even if a god/dess did exist, there's no reason it would have to have our best interests in mind (which is why I'm glad the evidence doesn't seem to point to it; see my previous post). I've read, for example, science fiction stories where the universe started as a mistake, as an accident, as a kid's science fair project, as a deliberate joke. I don't see why, if it were somehow, someday, proved that the universe did have a conscious force behind it, it wouldn't be one of those instead of some grand Destiny.

As for the moral question...

Well, I don't want to kill other people partially because I know what would happen to me if I did (prison or execution, or, at best, imprisonment of another kind in a mental hospital) and partially because I don't think it's right. This may be the result of morals trained into me from earliest childhood, but, if so, it is training that I choose not to challenge or change.

Suicide is another matter. I have considered it in the past. I am not considering it at present. If something changed drastically, I might. I could also die tomorrow, and I do my best to accept that (rather than think of what might be lost).

I also fully support the right of sick people to commit suicide if they feel their quality of life is irretrievably diminished, and "living wills" made by an individual to make sure that, if that person becomes a vegetable on life support with no chance of recovery, his or her family can disconnect the machines. I will probably do something of the same sort myself. I think the right to die is every bit as important as the right to live, and what is most important is life, not simply survival.

I would feel chained if there was a point to the universe, except on the very small chance that the point was agreeable to me and I could be certain it always would be agreeable to me. There doesn't seem to be a point to the universe. Therefore, I am happy most of the time. I know sorrow, of course. But why should the miseries, or the sorrows, or, if you like, the "pointlessness" or "dark side" of life be more important than the joy?

Oh, long post again. Sorry. But this is interesting.

[Edited because I sometimes can't spell when I'm typing too fast].

-Perchance.

[ June 16, 2002: Message edited by: Perchance ]

Christopher Lord · 06-16-2002, 04:14 PM

Yes, quite interesting.

I think of it like this:
We are the extrapolation of an accident. Those first few replicators somehow managed to settle into a natural feedback loop which has produced countless copies in a branching bush, including myself.

We see reason and causation everywhere because that�s what helped our ancestors survive. What better hunter has ever existed on this planet? These same tools which we use to reason about animal tracks and tool making also turn against us when we focus their power on more abstract things.

Not only do we make tools and kill animals with this vast power, we make gods and dream of escaping death. After all, isn�t death just another predator on the savannah out to get us? Even though it is completely irrational, it has a strange harmony of truth which our reasoning brain latches on to.

What IS the point?

In my mind this question is the exact same as �What is the cosmic significance of a chemical reaction?� This is because we are simply the distant descendants of an ancient chemical reaction that somehow managed to replicate itself.

But that does not invalidate our society at all. If I go out and start killing strangers, even though I am ONLY killing other replicators of which there are plenty already, I am also, on a meta-level, killing other members of my society, and so society as a whole will judge my actions appropriately.

[ June 16, 2002: Message edited by: Christopher Lord ]

Christopher Lord · 06-16-2002, 04:22 PM

In <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=21&t=000379&p=" target="_blank">this</a> topic we had a very similar discussion, and many good points were raised.

hinduwoman · 06-16-2002, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Veil of Fire:
First off, I seriously mean this as a real, honest question. Not as a flame or anything.

How do atheists deal with the concept of death, without getting despondant?

I mean... I don't know if I could handle believing that when I die, that's it, it's over, do not pass go, do not collect $200. I would feel like my life was pointless, my being here an exercise in pointlessness, and the only thing I could ever do was help other people live better, but still pointless, lives.. in a cycle that continues until the sun explodes. It just seems to unimportant and futile...

I have a very morbid mind, especially when it comes to the long term.

How do you handle it? How do you give your life meaning?

I suppose it all comes back to the old Don Quixote quote.. "I've never had the courage to believe in nothing."

I have existed. Nothing, not even the end of the universe can take it away.

Secular Pinoy · 06-18-2002, 04:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rhea:
Driving my car around the racetrack at 120mph seems very unimportant and very futile. But i sure do enjoy it

and spend a lot of money trying to do it as often as possible.

You've been taught that joy must be given to you, rather than you discovering it. that inhibits your ability to feel what we feel, unfortunately.

Is a song less beautiful because it's short? You seem to be saying that a lifespan is not long enough to have meaning. Is a kind act less meaningful because it's spontaneous?

My life has purpose, meaning & joy, just like yours. And, just like what you believe, it will cease at my death. You probably don't (when you really think about it) think your life in heaven will just be a continuation of this life. it will start agian, rendering your earthly existence moot and pointless, won't it?

Amen to that! I couldn't have said it any better. Mind if I rip it next time someone else asks? Thanks!

06-16-2002, 02:32 PM	#36
Perchance Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Kentucky Posts: 1,059	Actually, you could say that that's the point: that it has no point. Sorry. Just being flippant . But seriously, why does something HAVE to have "a point?" Sunsets don't have "a point." Even the earth going around the sun, or the stars going supernova, or the mouse dying beneath the talons of the owl, doesn't have a "point." Is it "cause" that you mean? Then yes, I would agree that many, many things have causes, perhaps not everything (I don't believe we know enough about the universe yet to state with 100% certainty that everything has a cause... but then, I don't believe that of anything). And it may not be easy to see the cause of certain behaviors, or why some people choose to kill others, or why some people choose to end their own lives. But that doesn't mean that they don't have causes. As for the examples you listed... Well, I suppose you could say that yes, plants and animals adapt to certain environments, and that is the point. But what is the point, then (if you want to take it a level deeper) of those environments existing in the first place? A deer lives in a forest. It is adapted to live there (keen senses, fleetness of foot, herding behavior that protects the weaker members, and so on). But why is the forest there? Why did the deer adapt to the forest in the first place? Why does it live in the forest at all? Those things have causes. You can explain them by means of evolutionary theory, biology, botany, and geology. But I don't think you can really say they have a point. "Point," in this sense, seems to mean not only "cause" or "ultimate destination," but "ultimate destination that makes sense to humans and is agreeable to the human mind." I don't see why anything in the universe (including human behavior) has to have this as a precondition of its existence. Even if a god/dess did exist, there's no reason it would have to have our best interests in mind (which is why I'm glad the evidence doesn't seem to point to it; see my previous post). I've read, for example, science fiction stories where the universe started as a mistake, as an accident, as a kid's science fair project, as a deliberate joke. I don't see why, if it were somehow, someday, proved that the universe did have a conscious force behind it, it wouldn't be one of those instead of some grand Destiny. As for the moral question... Well, I don't want to kill other people partially because I know what would happen to me if I did (prison or execution, or, at best, imprisonment of another kind in a mental hospital) and partially because I don't think it's right. This may be the result of morals trained into me from earliest childhood, but, if so, it is training that I choose not to challenge or change. Suicide is another matter. I have considered it in the past. I am not considering it at present. If something changed drastically, I might. I could also die tomorrow, and I do my best to accept that (rather than think of what might be lost). I also fully support the right of sick people to commit suicide if they feel their quality of life is irretrievably diminished, and "living wills" made by an individual to make sure that, if that person becomes a vegetable on life support with no chance of recovery, his or her family can disconnect the machines. I will probably do something of the same sort myself. I think the right to die is every bit as important as the right to live, and what is most important is life, not simply survival. I would feel chained if there was a point to the universe, except on the very small chance that the point was agreeable to me and I could be certain it always would be agreeable to me. There doesn't seem to be a point to the universe. Therefore, I am happy most of the time. I know sorrow, of course. But why should the miseries, or the sorrows, or, if you like, the "pointlessness" or "dark side" of life be more important than the joy? Oh, long post again. Sorry. But this is interesting. [Edited because I sometimes can't spell when I'm typing too fast]. -Perchance. [ June 16, 2002: Message edited by: Perchance ]</p>

06-16-2002, 04:14 PM	#37
Christopher Lord Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Toronto Posts: 808	Yes, quite interesting. I think of it like this: We are the extrapolation of an accident. Those first few replicators somehow managed to settle into a natural feedback loop which has produced countless copies in a branching bush, including myself. We see reason and causation everywhere because that�s what helped our ancestors survive. What better hunter has ever existed on this planet? These same tools which we use to reason about animal tracks and tool making also turn against us when we focus their power on more abstract things. Not only do we make tools and kill animals with this vast power, we make gods and dream of escaping death. After all, isn�t death just another predator on the savannah out to get us? Even though it is completely irrational, it has a strange harmony of truth which our reasoning brain latches on to. What IS the point? In my mind this question is the exact same as �What is the cosmic significance of a chemical reaction?� This is because we are simply the distant descendants of an ancient chemical reaction that somehow managed to replicate itself. But that does not invalidate our society at all. If I go out and start killing strangers, even though I am ONLY killing other replicators of which there are plenty already, I am also, on a meta-level, killing other members of my society, and so society as a whole will judge my actions appropriately. [ June 16, 2002: Message edited by: Christopher Lord ]</p>

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06-14-2002, 08:43 AM	#31
Evil Jello Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Gatineau Canada Posts: 18	There "I was dead for millions of years before I was born and it never inconvenienced me a bit." - Mark Twain

06-14-2002, 10:26 AM	#32
wildernesse Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 1,578	As a Christian, I can’t really respond to how atheists feel about death. But, I think that theists and atheists alike could be asked this question and you’d get similar answers. How do you deal with the concept of death without being despondent? Even as a Christian who believes that there will be life after death, I wonder about the pointlessness of life. After I’m dead, I’m gone! There isn’t anything of this left! My body will rot and who knows what will happen to whatever is left of me. So how do I enjoy this time now? And for me, my answer to this is to be conscious of what I can do to help others, enjoy today, get the best out of life, think and then act on those thoughts. Live a full life—full of relationships with other people, full of imagination, full of happiness. Don’t dwell on the end of life, dwell on the life. --tiba

06-14-2002, 01:39 PM	#33
Radcliffe Emerson Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: the dark side of Mars Posts: 1,309	I honestly don't think about death. I can't avoid it, it's going to happen no matter what, so I just go along and take everything a day at a time.

06-14-2002, 02:35 PM	#34
sullster Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: North of Boston Posts: 1,392	Our impending personal extinction is troubling to all thinking humans. Yet, I feel that non-believers can live a more realistic life than after-life believers. When we reject the after-life fanatasy, we are forced to look at life as an end in itself and make decisions based on that knowledge. We are made stronger by facing the terror of our personal destruction without the consolation of an utterly nonsensical after-life fantasy. The world around us becomes more real, the horrors of the world and the beauty of the world. All the after-life ideas of the religions are no consolation to me and actually cause more desolation than the idea of personal extinction. To not be "me" forever, is far better than being "me", in some hallucinogenic after-life forever. Heaven,hell and having my consciousness forever are far more terrifying than extinction.

06-16-2002, 01:25 PM	#35
Veil of Fire Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: South Carolina Posts: 451	"Physically there is very little difference between them and us. We all come into being, replicate, and die." There. Right there. That's the whole crux on my consternation. What's the POINT? If it doesn't matter one whit whether I die tomorrow or in 80 years, why should I care about anything? If everyone's going to eventually cease to exist, why should making them cease to exist a little earlier be necessarily a bad thing? Espcially if it makes my pointless life a bit more fun/bearable? It's almost as mind-boggling to me as the Calvinist doctrine of predestination... if there's no point, why care? If I'm just here to reproduce, why should I care if someone rapes me, or uses me in a one-night stand? Genes still get transferred. We humans make ourselves out to be sooo important.. we build fancy buildings and fancy governments to make ourselves feel special... and it's all gonna be dust before it actually has a chance to contain universal significance. I just... there has to be a POINT. Everything in nature has a reason, except life itself. There's a reason porcupines have quills, there's a reason snakes have venom, there's a reason Longleaf Pines are resistant to fire... only life itself, reproduction, seems to have no purpose. No point. It exists solely to perpetutate itself to no appreciable consequence? I don't think I could buy that without becoming suicidal ("what's it matter? Why bother?") or homicidal ("He's already got a kid, and he pissed me off, there's no real reason NOT to just stab him in the head with my icepick..."). ** "Why is it that almost all the people who "remember" some past life remember that they were kings, queens or nobles of some sort?" Oh, hell yes. I know exactly what you mean. You have no CLUE how many ex-Cleopatras or ex-Atlantean Royalty I run into. I swear, Merlin HAD to have Dissasociative Identity Disorder with about 30k personalities, for the number of people claiming him as their past life. Just ONCE I want to meet someone who says "Oh, I was a midieval spy... but I was pretty lousy. I got my head cut off by some petty noble my third week on the job." ** "If "you" are reincarnated with a different personality, different identity, and absolutely no memory of your previous existence, can it really be said that you survive in any useful sense?" That's a good question. Perhaps conciousness itself is worthy of "you" status? I dunno. **** "Many people like to claim that the information has just been transferred somewhere else. If that were so, there should be some evidence of it. There is none. It takes energy and a medium (not the supernatural kind) to transfer and retain information." Well, I did read somewhere that the body weighs less by like 1.4 pounds immediately after the moment of death... but I couldn't find it or quote it for you, and snopes probably already has a debunking article on it... so, barring a scientific discovery of Jung's Collective Unconcious, or AEther, or an Astral Plane, then yeah, you have a point.

06-16-2002, 04:22 PM	#38
Christopher Lord Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Toronto Posts: 808	In <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=21&t=000379&p=" target="_blank">this</a> topic we had a very similar discussion, and many good points were raised.

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