Sur-reality

well thank you for the welcome and please do not suppose about me that which may not be true (or may be). Let me clarify what i say: I don't really want to take a position in this debate my goal is to discern the right position to take. Now it is my understanding that to choose between two arguments one has to study them and then validate the proof that lies in them. Well as shown there isn't much proof for this christians idea but alas that doesn't mean that you win by default (at least to me). Now remember some of us are actually trying to understand both views. In the light of this if the christian is wrong that still leaves by default thousands of other religions, beliefs etc. to believe in. There fore the entire reason i asked for proof is that in a logic debate the one who wins the argument is the on who can validate thier argument withthe facts that arre behind it. All i am inquiring is: is there any proof that god(s)don't exist. if so i will look elsewhere until i can find a elief system that can support what it believes with evidence.

Mageth

All i am inquiring is: is there any proof that god(s)don't exist. if so i will look elsewhere until i can find a elief system that can support what it believes with evidence.

You don't get it, do you? Atheism is not a "belief system", per se; it's an expression of lack of belief. If you lack belief in god(s), you're an atheist (well, you could be an agnostic); if you believe in god(s), you're a theist (or pantheist, or polytheist, or...).

Atheism simply doesn't have to provide any proof that god(s) don't exist. If that's not satistfactory to you, look into agnosticism.

Sur-reality

mageth-
I'm am searching that very question is there god(s) are there not. and i apply the same test to each one of them, to prove thier core belief, let me digress into sematics for a moment- when i say belief i mean the root of your outlook on life how you interperate the world and please correct me but for the atheist this means that they see the life as not being affected, containing or in any way having any association with any diety(s) or devine being(s) etc... And so the evidence that there is no god is...

oh and also this what is the rebuttal that an atheist posess to the "can't prove a universal negative" argument

That is all i ask. I simply thought that because this thread was taking a turn towards trhis topic it would be the proper one to ask it on. i await your reply.:banghead:

Mageth

Sur-reality:

the root of your outlook on life how you interperate the world and please correct me but for the atheist this means that they see the life as not being affected, containing or in any way having any association with any diety(s) or devine being(s) etc...

I'm an atheist; that's an expression of my lack of belief in god(s). My "outlook on life" is a separate subject, really, only affected in that I don't practice a religion or hold any religious beliefs. And obviously believe that my life is not affected by any god(s) (though it is affected by the religious beliefs of others!)

And so the evidence that there is no god is...

One more time, as a "weak" atheist, I do not claim "there is no god(s)", nor do I claim to have evidence that there is no god(s). I simply lack belief in god(s), due to the lack of evidence.

As I said on the other thread, it's the lack of evidence that leads to my atheism, not "evidence that there is no god".

Now, if you provide a particular description of a god (e.g. the xian omnimax god), it may be possible to prove that that particular description of a god is self-contradictory, and thus invalid (as I believe the xian omnimax god is).

Sur-reality

mageth-
Thank you for that clarification. I have no problem with you not or believing in god that is not what i question though. none the less thank you for that, other wise i fear i would have gotten into a meaningless arguement, your insight has been helpful.

Mick911

Thank you all for the rebuttals and opinions offered.
First of all, I really cannot explain my reasons to you, just as you cannot explain your reasons to me. I can only offer "stories" based on my life experiences. I don't expect any hard-liners to believe me at all, but it seems some of you are just as stubborn about your religions (or lack thereof) as certain other people and groups in the world today. You laugh at my assertions of extraterrestrial life and astral projection, but offer no opinions to the contrary.
My IQ is 151 and my b-day is Sept. 11th, not that you care.
I'm not trying to debunk your beliefs, these are my opinions about them. But you sure have no trouble cutting mine apart. I thought stubbornness and narrow-mindedness were traits of the so-called Religious Right lol.
I have perused religious and philisophical texts (how many of you know about Anton LeVay?) What makes my opinions any less than yours? Are you prone to more info about the real world than I? I think not. I have opened my eyes and mind to every possibility, unlike the hard-liners. I never said I was perfect.
You seem to think I believe in the Judeo-Christian god, which is funny- is this your only exposure to the so-called higher being?
It scares me that you are so quick to dismiss the ideas of government influence beyond our understanding.
And who has any proof that astrology isn't real? People seem to me to all fit their sign's profile; those that don't fit most likely have a powerful planet or luminary influencing their natal sun.
Man, this is fun.

Mageth

Thank you all for the rebuttals and opinions offered.

You're welcome.

First of all, I really cannot explain my reasons to you, just as you cannot explain your reasons to me.

My reasons for what? For my atheism? It's quite simple, really; lack of evidence for god(s). The same reason would apply to other weird beliefs.

I can only offer "stories" based on my life experiences. I don't expect any hard-liners to believe me at all, but it seems some of you are just as stubborn about your religions (or lack thereof) as certain other people and groups in the world today.

I'll accept something if there's good evidence for it. Anecdotal evidence does not count, BTW.

You laugh at my assertions of extraterrestrial life and astral projection, but offer no opinions to the contrary.

No evidence (for ETs having visited us. I think it's highly probable that ET life is out there somewhere; it's a big universe), and no evidence. That's my opinions on both those.

My IQ is 151 and my b-day is Sept. 11th, not that you care.

You're right, I don't care. Neither have any bearing on whether the beliefs you hold are "real". Smart people are perfectly capable of believing weird things; the difference is they are generally better at defending/rationalizing those beliefs than those not so smart.

I'm not trying to debunk your beliefs, these are my opinions about them. But you sure have no trouble cutting mine apart.

If you say so.

I thought stubbornness and narrow-mindedness were traits of the so-called Religious Right lol.

I think you're confusing healthy skepticism with "stubbornness and narrow-mindedness". I adamantly refuse to believe every weird thing I hear of that is not supported by good evidence. You should try it some times.

I have perused religious and philisophical texts (how many of you know about Anton LeVay?)

I know of him, but so what? Just another example of a believer in the weird that many credulous people think knew the truth.

What makes my opinions any less than yours? Are you prone to more info about the real world than I? I think not.

Well, apparently some of us are less prone to believe weird stuff without evidence than you.

I have opened my eyes and mind to every possibility, unlike the hard-liners.

That explains it; what we appear have here is someone whose mind is so open any weird thing can take hold.

Let me ask you: are there any strange hypotheses that you don't accept? If so, what do you use to differentiate between weird beliefs, so that you believe some and don't believe others?

I'm open to "possibilities" as well, as are most of the "hard-liners" around here. But I don't accept something as probable or existent without good evidence.

Thus, it's possible to be both open-minded (willing to consider possibilities) and skeptical (willing to critically examine "weird" ideas before accepting them, and only accepting ideas that pass the examination).

I never said I was perfect.

And neither has anyone else around here.

You seem to think I believe in the Judeo-Christian god, which is funny- is this your only exposure to the so-called higher being?

No, not at all. And I've seen no good evidence to support any such claims, whether yours or someone else's.

It scares me that you are so quick to dismiss the ideas of government influence beyond our understanding.

Produce good evidence for such before I'll consider it.

And who has any proof that astrology isn't real?

Anyone with a good bullshit meter (i.e. a healthy level of skepticism, and the will to apply it to weird claims).

People seem to me to all fit their sign's profile; those that don't fit most likely have a powerful planet or luminary influencing their natal sun.

And a perfect example of that bullshit; an ad hoc explanation for those many cases that don't fit the predictions.

Man, this is fun.

Is it?

Mick911

Who can decide who is insane?

Mick911

I think (as in my opinion) that true athiest wouldn't even care to defend their position, or try to debunk rational (or irrational) thinking.
You assume I believe in astrology, as well.
Yes, this is fun. Life is too short to be so critical.

Mageth

I think (as in my opinion) that true athiest wouldn't even care to defend their position, or try to debunk rational (or irrational) thinking.

What? Why should I even need to defend my position? It's up to the positive claimants (the Theists) or their particular god to provide the evidence.

Why would I try to debunk rational thinking? And why would I need to debunk irrational thinking?

You're not making much sense here.

You assume I believe in astrology, as well.

Umm, if you look at my reply to your statement "And who has any proof that astrology isn't real?", you'll see no indication that I assumed you believe in it. So you assume that I assume you believe in astrology!

But even if I did so assume, I'd be justified in that assumption based on your statements such as "People seem to me to all fit their sign's profile."

Well, do you believe in astrology?

Yes, this is fun. Life is too short to be so critical.

Life is too short to accept beliefs without reason.