Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Blinn · 11-07-2002, 09:34 AM

Hey, I found this nicely done article on <a href="http://www.sfu.ca/biology/faculty/farrell/pub-docs/p154.pdf" target="_blank">Circulation in Vertebrates</a> a while back. Vanderzyden, here's what it has to say about gravitational effects (bold added):

Quote:

Gravitational potential energy (pgh) results from the weight of blood relative to the position of the heart. Gravitational potential energy can greatly affect the transmural pressure gradient across walls of veins in erect terrestrial animals. For example, high venous transmural pressures in the lower limbs of the giraffe puts veins in danger of overdistension. Similarly, a snake climbing headfirst up a tree is in danger of blood pooling in the veins of its tail, preventing venous return to the heart. Conversely, the neck veins of an upright giraffe are in danger of collapse because the transmural pressure is below zero (i.e.pgh>P). Pocket valves in veins, stiffer venous walls and surrounding tissues, and powerful cardiovascular reflexes are adaptations that ameliorate these gravitational effects. Consequently, arboreal snakes cope with venous pooling better than other snakes. In the aquatic environment, hydrostatic pressure offsets this gravitational effect on vascular transmural pressure, something that may have been critical for very large dinosaurs. Antigravity suits, worn by pilots who perform high-g manoeuvres, employ a similar principle.

pz · 11-07-2002, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Zetek:
Hey, I found this nicely done article on <a href="http://www.sfu.ca/biology/faculty/farrell/pub-docs/p154.pdf" target="_blank">Circulation in Vertebrates</a> a while back.

That is a very nice article -- it is a good general overview of lots of the topics that have been discussed in this thread, such as the arrangement of the branchial arches and comparative differences in the circulatory system.

Vanderzyden · 11-07-2002, 10:31 AM

What is the acronym that is often used in such a situation?

LOL!

Yes, I find these last two pages to be quite hilarious. Even PZ has made me laugh:

Quote:

That is one seriously addled mixed metaphor, but it does seem somehow appropriate. I can picture Vanderzyden standing on the deck of a sinking ship, solemnly announcing that it cannot possibly be going down because he has not been able to find any parachutes on board.

Hah!

The E/C motley crew, hell-bent on vanquishing the seemingly-uninformed but amazingly stubborn invader, thinks that they finally have him cornered in the harbor.

Now, what is the way out of this out of the quagmire?

Calculations will not be of much help. Rather, understanding of principles and proper application will.

Since it seems that my opponents prefer military analogies, I will employ one myself: I am not on the ship that you think you are sinking. I am putting an explosive armor-piercing round into the breech right now.

Take cover and standby,

John

[ November 07, 2002: Message edited by: Vanderzyden ]

pz · 11-07-2002, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vanderzyden:
Since it seems that my opponents prefer military analogies, I will employ one myself: I am putting an explosive armor-piercing round into the breech right now.

Ho hum. So we can expect you to lob out a damp sponge some time 'round about next week?

Rather than preparatory hyperbole, just some simple, plain, straightforward answers to the many questions you've been asked would be much more appropriate.

I have no idea what the silly picture of the boat is supposed to mean, but here's my response...

[ November 07, 2002: Message edited by: pz ]

Jack the Bodiless · 11-07-2002, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Since it seems that my opponents prefer military analogies, I will employ one myself: I am putting an explosive armor-piercing round into the breech right now.

Take cover and standby,

John

You're about to blow your brains out?

You have no other target to aim at.

Very decent of you, Vander, but a trifle melodramatic.

Jesus Tap-Dancin' Christ · 11-07-2002, 11:01 AM

Man, take a few day vacation, and look what happens. A whole lot of nothing from one particular, who needn't be named, since that would be "unfair" and "name-calling", not to mention "acidic" and other nasty terms and a whole lot of something from a whole lot of others.

Why should I be surprised?

RufusAtticus · 11-07-2002, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Since it seems that my opponents prefer military analogies, I will employ one myself: I am not on the ship that you think you are sinking. I am putting an explosive armor-piercing round into the breech right now.

Your time would be better spent showing us your calculations.

~~RvFvS~~

Bubba · 11-07-2002, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rbochnermd:
By now even John must know that his arguments are meritless. He does not comprehend physics or physiology, but cannot bring himself to concede as much. His assertions on this thread have been wrong from the beginning, and he has made himself look like a fool by persisting in defending them and insulting those who are well-versed in this area along the way.

I think it goes into the psychology of denial more than it does logic.

As far as making wrong assertions, when have creationists done anything else?
Bubba

Bubba · 11-07-2002, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rbochnermd:
To everyone else;

Is there anyone, anyone at all following this thread that thinks Vanderzyden has made a valid argument somewhere along the line? I'd be happy to address any comments about the physiology and anatomy of the fetal circulation, and we obviously have some experts here that could answer any detailed questions about the physics.

Rick

I know I've said thank you several times to the posters here...But to Rick, pz, Scigirl. Jesus Christ, Rufus, et al...THANKS!!! Your helping me see more of how science works.

Bubba

Dr Rick · 11-07-2002, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vanderzyden:
Take cover and standby...

...and for God's sake, plug your nose; looks like John is about to let loose another one...

Rick

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11-07-2002, 11:01 AM	#316
Jesus Tap-Dancin' Christ Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Heaven Posts: 6,980	Man, take a few day vacation, and look what happens. A whole lot of nothing from one particular, who needn't be named, since that would be "unfair" and "name-calling", not to mention "acidic" and other nasty terms and a whole lot of something from a whole lot of others. Why should I be surprised?

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