Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Sandy · 03-12-2002, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Whoa...back up partner. I did not, nor do not "justify" 9/11. Clearly an act of Lucifer...and see what is happening as a result. Don't blame 9/11 on God. 9/11 was the acts of sick, mislead MEN. God did not order it. For the record, I lost a close friend at the WTC

It was clearly justified according to Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell who claimed god was withholding his protection of our country. They even named names of groups of people responsible for the tragedy. So, according to your very visible "examples of christianity" <Pat and Jerry>, who's really responsible for it? You can't have it both ways. If the claim "god withheld his protection" according to them is true, he might as well have flown the planes himself.

On topic, even if I ever wished there was a god , it wouldn't be the christian version of god. He just doesn't live up to my standard of ethics.

Jamie_L · 03-12-2002, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 99Percent:
Heaven, if it existed, would turn out to be so boring that it would be the equivalent to death itself.

Obviously, if heaven existed, and were truely to be a heaven and not eternal torture, it would have to involve fundamental changes to those in heaven so that it didn't become so boring. But then, we wouldn't really be in heaven. Some strange modified version of us would be. Which is all very tangential to this discussion.

Maybe I'd get bored living forever. But I'd like to have the choice to live as long as I want. Which is still just wishful thinking.

Jamie

Bait · 03-12-2002, 10:56 AM

Sandy,
Please don't judge all Christians by the actions/statements of Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell. As a whole, we do not believe that way.
Ron

Quote:

Originally posted by Sandy:


It was clearly justified according to Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell who claimed god was withholding his protection of our country. They even named names of groups of people responsible for the tragedy. So, according to your very visible "examples of christianity" <Pat and Jerry>, who's really responsible for it? You can't have it both ways. If the claim "god withheld his protection" according to them is true, he might as well have flown the planes himself.

On topic, even if I ever wished there was a god , it wouldn't be the christian version of god. He just doesn't live up to my standard of ethics.

Jayhawker Soule · 03-12-2002, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bait:
I did not deserve, or appreciate, your crass, crude and hurtful insinuation, and believe that you sir, owe me an apology.

And I believe that the observation was entirely accurate and fully deserving. Yours is precisely the 'logic' behind 9/11. Your objection to 9/11 is based solely on your rejection of 'their' Allah: if it's your God calling you to genocide, it's fine; if it's their Allah calling them to terrorism, it's a lie.

Quote:

Num 31:7
And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.

Num 31:8
And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword.

Num 31:9
And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods.

Num 31:10
And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.

Num 31:11
And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts.

Num 31:12
And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho.

Num 31:13
And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp.

Num 31:14
And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.

Num 31:15
And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?

Num 31:16
Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.

Num 31:17
Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

Num 31:18
But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Pay particular attention to the part about killing "every male among the little ones." There's nothing quite like being thorough. The good news is this 'God-given' orgy of barbarism is myth. The bad news is that there are folks who can, have, and will justify anything once convinced that it is God's will.

[ March 12, 2002: Message edited by: ReasonableDoubt ]

03-12-2002, 11:34 AM

This is as good a thread as any I could find to "come out" about a couple of things in.

Those of you who know me know that I am a committed atheist. BUT....

1) I am seduced by Gospel Music. Especially when it is the Statler Brothers performing. "Just a little walk with Jesus" really turns me on.

2) There is something in Jack Kerouac's Buddhism and my grandparents' hillbilly folk religion that is attractive. Practitioners and believers are truly and fundamentally convinced that there are certain practices and guidlines, which if adhered to strictly, make life much sweeter.

With Kerouac, it was daily meditation, with Grandad, it was the work ethic. Maybe these religions seem more attractive (if no more true) because I am removed from them.

I do try to sing like the Statler Brothers (even though I can't). I also dedicate myself to following my own system of ethics as strictly as possible like Grandad did. There is satisfaction to be had from there.

A lot of people here find most conservative Christians to be rude, mean-spirited and self-righteous. I come from a family of conservative (evangelical) Christians, and while I most definitely think they are wrong, they are also some of the best people I know. They are certainly not self-righteous or mean-sprited, and they love me no less knowing that I am an atheist than they did when I was a child and still nominally Christian.

Jayhawker Soule · 03-12-2002, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Smith:
This is as good a thread as any I could find to "come out" about a couple of things in.

Those of you who know me know that I am a committed atheist. BUT....

1) I am seduced by Gospel Music. Especially when it is the Statler Brothers performing. "Just a little walk with Jesus" really turns me on.

I actually prefer the Statler Brothers' rendition of "You Are My Sunshine", but it's hard to beat a good gospel group doing Amazing Grace. Also great are many of the songs of the civil rights movement having gospel as a base. I was actually at a party with Odetta once many years ago - talk about "Amazing"!

WJ · 03-12-2002, 11:49 AM

H!

You said in the opening post:"There are times when I just want to throw rationality out the window and start worshipping that large invisible being up there in the sky."

Isn't it contradictory that your 'feeling' has nothing to do with logic?

Being the (Christian)anti-rationalist that I am (in the epistemic sense) you should know that the apriori won't help you resolve this human condition. In fact, the aposterior won't ultimately rid you of this problem, but it is the preferred method of discovery(if you are searching that is).

There exists a human phenomena of certain concepts in life that ironically was endorsed by the Religious belief system: faith hope and love. In religious existentialism, the choice was made between faith in nothingness, or a something. Pascal posed the choice as a Wager. The atheist existentialist's chose Being and Nothingness.

I have personally found that those three concepts are as much a true universal phenomenon as the concepts in mathematics, 1+1=2. Though, when you add the human thing/element that we call love (whatever that is) into the equasion, it seemingly throws logic out the window, thus 1+1=1. If you recall, the movie Titanic and Forrest Gump were based on the irrational phenomenon of life itself.

I hope you find meaning, and discover something to put your faith in; truth is Subjectivity.

Walrus

[ March 12, 2002: Message edited by: WJ ]

World's Youngest Atheist · 03-12-2002, 12:12 PM

<a href="http://www.theonion.com/onion3801/black_gospel_choir.html" target="_blank">http://www.theonion.com/onion3801/black_gospel_choir.html</a>

- Youngest

NOGO · 03-12-2002, 12:13 PM

Do I wish God existed?

Usually people ask these questions when they have a need. Nobody who is in blissful joy says to himself "I wish God existed". Usually you ask about God when you realize that something is missing and nobody can give it to you except Father in the sky. Then you start longing for Him.
Rationally if you think about this you realize that your needs create your need for God.

It can come down to this. If you are immature and cannot accept that you cannot have certain things then God is your answer. You may be 60 years old or 20. You may a doctor, an engineer or an illiterate peasant. You can be intelligetn or stupid.

One of the things that none of us can have is eternal life. Are you mature enough to accept this? If you are not then you will be a believer.

Frankly, I have trouble accepting it. I wish that God exists. But all the evidence is against it.
Perhaps I should get a lobotomy and then I can start believing.

Perhaps one day I will get so desperate and start believing. But will I be closer to the truth?

The kind of God that I wish for is very different than the one most believers say that they have.
My God would have revealed himself to us from the start and would still be with us. He would not hide and leave us to fend for ourselves.
I don't buy this man has sinned baloney.

Dacurl930 · 03-12-2002, 12:27 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bait:
[qb]Hi Harumi and all,

Man choose to rebel against God, and align himself with God's fallen Angel Lucifer when Adam & Eve disobeyed God's command.

[me]

Why did the sin of one man (Adam) harm the entire human race but the sin of one angel (Lucifer) only brought harm to that one angel?
Couldn't God have give each man the right to choose good or evil individually?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bait:
Lucifer, being angry that God has kicked him out of heaven, is on (around/in) the earth, is trying to hurt God by hurting the ones God loves most...man.

[me]
If the devil is a clever as Christians say he is should he realize that he can't hurt an all-powerful, all-knowing God and just stop trying?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bait:
So God came down in the form of a man, and paid that price so we could be free of that punishment. The price had to be paid by an innocent, one who had not caught the desease of sin...otherwise the debt would have been owed by him too.

[me]
Why would and all-powerful god need to sacrifice himself to himself in order to pay off a dept that he could have simply called off?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bait:
Why is he taking so long? Simple, so both the angels and man can see the consequences of rebelling against man.

[me]
But the man who was the one (according to you) to rebel against him is allready dead. So why must he continue to show new generations the consiquences for a rebellion that has already been resolved(through jesus).

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bait:

Who's really causing the suffering? Lucifer - to hurt those God loves, not God.

[me]
Why does god let him? and why did God put him on earth in the first place for that matter?

[ March 12, 2002: Message edited by: Dacurl930 ]

03-12-2002, 11:49 AM	#37
WJ Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 812	H! You said in the opening post:"There are times when I just want to throw rationality out the window and start worshipping that large invisible being up there in the sky." Isn't it contradictory that your 'feeling' has nothing to do with logic? Being the (Christian)anti-rationalist that I am (in the epistemic sense) you should know that the apriori won't help you resolve this human condition. In fact, the aposterior won't ultimately rid you of this problem, but it is the preferred method of discovery(if you are searching that is). There exists a human phenomena of certain concepts in life that ironically was endorsed by the Religious belief system: faith hope and love. In religious existentialism, the choice was made between faith in nothingness, or a something. Pascal posed the choice as a Wager. The atheist existentialist's chose Being and Nothingness. I have personally found that those three concepts are as much a true universal phenomenon as the concepts in mathematics, 1+1=2. Though, when you add the human thing/element that we call love (whatever that is) into the equasion, it seemingly throws logic out the window, thus 1+1=1. If you recall, the movie Titanic and Forrest Gump were based on the irrational phenomenon of life itself. I hope you find meaning, and discover something to put your faith in; truth is Subjectivity. Walrus [ March 12, 2002: Message edited by: WJ ]</p>

03-12-2002, 12:27 PM	#40
Dacurl930 Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: New York Posts: 6	[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bait: [qb]Hi Harumi and all, Man choose to rebel against God, and align himself with God's fallen Angel Lucifer when Adam & Eve disobeyed God's command. [me] Why did the sin of one man (Adam) harm the entire human race but the sin of one angel (Lucifer) only brought harm to that one angel? Couldn't God have give each man the right to choose good or evil individually? [QUOTE]Originally posted by Bait: Lucifer, being angry that God has kicked him out of heaven, is on (around/in) the earth, is trying to hurt God by hurting the ones God loves most...man. [me] If the devil is a clever as Christians say he is should he realize that he can't hurt an all-powerful, all-knowing God and just stop trying? [QUOTE]Originally posted by Bait: So God came down in the form of a man, and paid that price so we could be free of that punishment. The price had to be paid by an innocent, one who had not caught the desease of sin...otherwise the debt would have been owed by him too. [me] Why would and all-powerful god need to sacrifice himself to himself in order to pay off a dept that he could have simply called off? [QUOTE]Originally posted by Bait: Why is he taking so long? Simple, so both the angels and man can see the consequences of rebelling against man. [me] But the man who was the one (according to you) to rebel against him is allready dead. So why must he continue to show new generations the consiquences for a rebellion that has already been resolved(through jesus). [QUOTE]Originally posted by Bait: Who's really causing the suffering? Lucifer - to hurt those God loves, not God. [me] Why does god let him? and why did God put him on earth in the first place for that matter? [ March 12, 2002: Message edited by: Dacurl930 ]</p>

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03-12-2002, 11:34 AM	#35
Jerry Smith Guest Posts: n/a	This is as good a thread as any I could find to "come out" about a couple of things in. Those of you who know me know that I am a committed atheist. BUT.... 1) I am seduced by Gospel Music. Especially when it is the Statler Brothers performing. "Just a little walk with Jesus" really turns me on. 2) There is something in Jack Kerouac's Buddhism and my grandparents' hillbilly folk religion that is attractive. Practitioners and believers are truly and fundamentally convinced that there are certain practices and guidlines, which if adhered to strictly, make life much sweeter. With Kerouac, it was daily meditation, with Grandad, it was the work ethic. Maybe these religions seem more attractive (if no more true) because I am removed from them. I do try to sing like the Statler Brothers (even though I can't). I also dedicate myself to following my own system of ethics as strictly as possible like Grandad did. There is satisfaction to be had from there. A lot of people here find most conservative Christians to be rude, mean-spirited and self-righteous. I come from a family of conservative (evangelical) Christians, and while I most definitely think they are wrong, they are also some of the best people I know. They are certainly not self-righteous or mean-sprited, and they love me no less knowing that I am an atheist than they did when I was a child and still nominally Christian.

03-12-2002, 12:12 PM	#38
World's Youngest Atheist Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 79	<a href="http://www.theonion.com/onion3801/black_gospel_choir.html" target="_blank">http://www.theonion.com/onion3801/black_gospel_choir.html</a> - Youngest

03-12-2002, 12:13 PM	#39
NOGO Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Canada Posts: 1,562	Do I wish God existed? Usually people ask these questions when they have a need. Nobody who is in blissful joy says to himself "I wish God existed". Usually you ask about God when you realize that something is missing and nobody can give it to you except Father in the sky. Then you start longing for Him. Rationally if you think about this you realize that your needs create your need for God. It can come down to this. If you are immature and cannot accept that you cannot have certain things then God is your answer. You may be 60 years old or 20. You may a doctor, an engineer or an illiterate peasant. You can be intelligetn or stupid. One of the things that none of us can have is eternal life. Are you mature enough to accept this? If you are not then you will be a believer. Frankly, I have trouble accepting it. I wish that God exists. But all the evidence is against it. Perhaps I should get a lobotomy and then I can start believing. Perhaps one day I will get so desperate and start believing. But will I be closer to the truth? The kind of God that I wish for is very different than the one most believers say that they have. My God would have revealed himself to us from the start and would still be with us. He would not hide and leave us to fend for ourselves. I don't buy this man has sinned baloney.

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