Freethought & Rationalism Archive

GeoTheo · 05-16-2003, 07:12 PM

Whispers,
Ask Richard why he is such a good person and see what he says.
I met a Christian that sounds a lot like him when I was in the Army. Loving people stick out in the infantry especially when they stay that way and don't become corrupted. It seemed to go against human nature for him to be like that. So I asked him why he was so good. Ask Richard and see if he says the same thing the guy I met said.
God bless you
Ted Heistman

Starboy · 05-16-2003, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by HelenM
Then why didn't you tell him that? Or did you, and I missed it?

Helen

I did tell him forcefully. Serveral others made similar observations. My post was removed by a moderator. The mod not only removed the inappropriate part but the appropriate part as well.

Starboy

Bumble Bee Tuna · 05-16-2003, 11:48 PM

Hey Whispers, for the record I don't think my post was very insulting, in fact IIRC the part AquaVita removed was actually where I was explaining how my responses to you chose the least insulting interpretation of your posts, i.e. when someone talks about classical physics and extremely fast objects, I do not assume they are morons for being horribly wrong, I merely assume they are ignorant of relativistic theory and try to fix that ignorance by educating them on the subject.

I don't know exactly why what I said got deleted, but I'm probably not interested enough to complain about it either. Just wanted to try to clear up what the post was and not make you think that the "Insult Deleted" meant I went off the handle on you, since you have been friendly.

-B

HelenM · 05-17-2003, 03:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Starboy
I did tell him forcefully. Serveral others made similar observations. My post was removed by a moderator. The mod not only removed the inappropriate part but the appropriate part as well.

Starboy

That's because you implied or said he wasn't telling the truth.

Helen

Starboy · 05-17-2003, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by HelenM
That's because you implied or said he wasn't telling the truth.

Helen

I still think he was lying. It is common for Christians to lie for their faith, especially when they think they are loosing the argument.

Starboy

livius drusus · 05-17-2003, 09:06 AM

Whispers has shown himself to be a courteous and open-minded poster. I welcome him to IIDB and see no reason to doubt a word he's said. Furthermore, even if I did question his self-assessment, empty speculation on people's identities is not appropriate in this forum.

There is plenty of substantive discussion on this thread for you to engage in, Starboy. No need to indulge in any further useless Sherlocking.

HelenM · 05-17-2003, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Starboy
I still think he was lying. It is common for Christians to lie for their faith, especially when they think they are loosing the argument.

Starboy

What argument could he possibly have been losing? He only signed up here the day before he started this thread and since he started this one himself, there was no 'argument' in process.

As best I can tell, the responses to him on this thread haven't put him on the defensive at all. If anyone is losing this thread it seems to be the atheists!

Do you generally assume people are lying? I don't really understand why you'd think this poster in particular is lying. Is it because you don't believe people ever are interested in finding out more about Christianity? Is it that you can't believe anyone who wants to find out more about Christianity might also want to find out more about atheism? Here is someone who seems to actually want to hear 'both sides' of an issue for once and all you can do is accuse him of lying? I would have thought you'd be pleased and welcome his questions. I'm surprised to find otherwise.

Helen

Starboy · 05-17-2003, 09:44 AM

HelenM, I have posted my reasons previously on this thread and you're welcome to view them. I do not think he is a liar because I perceive that he is loosing the argument, however it has been my experience that a Christian is not above lying for their faith. My policy is to assume the best about people until shown otherwise, however I still pay close attention to what they say, how they say it and what their motives may be. In the case of Wispers all of this just doesn't add up. Now I could be wrong, but so far I have seen nothing to change my mind and will not do so until I do. The rest of you are free to form and express any opinion you wish, however my opinion is not without some basis even if it was formed on first impressions. Again, please note, I can change my mind and will do so if it is merited. I do think that you might better understand my position if the moderator was not so merciless in editing my original post and only removed the parts that violated IID policy. Since this is an atheist board and Christians are visitors I see nothing wrong with calling a visitor to task if they strain credulity.

Starboy

livius drusus · 05-17-2003, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Starboy
I do think that you might better understand my position if the moderator was not so merciless in editing my original post and only removed the parts that violated IID policy. Since this is an atheist board and Christians are visitors I see nothing wrong with calling a visitor to task if they strain credulity.

Any concerns you might have about the moderation of this thread should be raised in the Bugs Forum. Also, feel free to initiate a policy discussion of the distinction between atheists insulting xians and atheists calling them to task in the IIDB Conference Room. I think it would be an interesting and valuable discussion to have.

Now back to the topic of the thread everyone, please.

Thank you,
livius drusus
Moderator - GRD

Edited to add: Starboy, I have moved your latest post to the IIDB Conference Room.

Sabine Grant · 05-17-2003, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rhea
I see nothing wrong with being moved by behavior. I see nothing wrong with being moved by someone's religiosity, even. I do see something flawed with being convinced of the value of religion in general by one person's actions. It is simply inescapable that the SAME LOGIC that you and he use to say Christianity is good, namely, the behavior of a single family, should eb applicable to any single family. Otherwise it is NOT AN ARGUMENT. Do you understand that? You and he are stating that THE ARGUMENT for the usefulness of religion is A FAMILY. If that is a good argument, then I should be able to use it, too! So. I say, look at the religious Andrea Yates and her family, doesn't this say something about Christianity?

Do you understand what it means to make an argument? If the argument is SOUND then anyone can use it.

Do you see what I mean? If you say you "recognize the value in Whisper's choice to allow himself to validate the decency of another individual no matter what spiritual trend he may represent." Then why do you deny me the value in doing exactly the same thing? Or does it somehow only work when religion comes up roses? That seems to be your patterns in several recent threads. An argument is sound if it makes religion look good. But the same argument is "prejudice" if it is used to show that religion has flaws.

If you can quote where I denigrated or demeaned Richard's behavior, I will retract it. Otherwise, I will accept your humble apology for falsely accusing me.

Yet you see something prejudicial in me DOING EXACTLY THE SAME THING. You are a piece of work, Sabine.

Like Andrea Yates? You are supposed to validate and appreciate her because she's a christian? Or worse yet, her husband?

Sabine, you have misunderstood. No one has attempted to dissuade him from exploring (if I am mistaken please provide a quote). They have tried to show him that the logic he used is flawed. If he finds a better argument, go for it. But the argument he presented is completely flawed. Because the SAME ARGUMENT can be used to prove the opposite. Therefore the argument (that the existence of one good christian validates christianity) IS NOT SOUND.

No one is telling him to not believe in gods. They are telling him to not count on THAT ARGUMENT because IT IS FLAWED.

Rhea... your tone is quite defensive. You take my general statements and call them an accusation demanding an apology. Relax a little Rhea... I do not recall having posted anywhere that the existence of one good christian validates christianity. And I do not read that intent in Whispers posts either.
What I read though is that because of the decent behavior of Richard and his family, Whispers is more inclined to explore christianity. In other words, when the messenger has an inviting and good attitude, the message becomes more attractive.
Would you not agree that yourself you may be more inclined to have a dialogue with a person who exhibits Richard's attitudes and behavior rather than engaging in any conversation with a person whose behavior is harmful?
I personaly enjoy dialoguing with people of all backgrounds granted they exhibit some degree of civility.
It seems to me you are reading more to thoughts expressed here than there is.
Again I commend Whispers for his or her ability to be open minded and seek dialogues with people who represent different ideologies and beliefs. That is the way to grow!

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05-16-2003, 07:12 PM	#71
GeoTheo Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Bemidji Posts: 1,197	Whispers, Ask Richard why he is such a good person and see what he says. I met a Christian that sounds a lot like him when I was in the Army. Loving people stick out in the infantry especially when they stay that way and don't become corrupted. It seemed to go against human nature for him to be like that. So I asked him why he was so good. Ask Richard and see if he says the same thing the guy I met said. God bless you Ted Heistman

05-16-2003, 11:48 PM	#73
Bumble Bee Tuna Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Middletown, CT Posts: 7,333	Hey Whispers, for the record I don't think my post was very insulting, in fact IIRC the part AquaVita removed was actually where I was explaining how my responses to you chose the least insulting interpretation of your posts, i.e. when someone talks about classical physics and extremely fast objects, I do not assume they are morons for being horribly wrong, I merely assume they are ignorant of relativistic theory and try to fix that ignorance by educating them on the subject. I don't know exactly why what I said got deleted, but I'm probably not interested enough to complain about it either. Just wanted to try to clear up what the post was and not make you think that the "Insult Deleted" meant I went off the handle on you, since you have been friendly. -B

05-17-2003, 09:06 AM	#76
livius drusus Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Selva Oscura Posts: 4,120	Whispers has shown himself to be a courteous and open-minded poster. I welcome him to IIDB and see no reason to doubt a word he's said. Furthermore, even if I did question his self-assessment, empty speculation on people's identities is not appropriate in this forum. There is plenty of substantive discussion on this thread for you to engage in, Starboy. No need to indulge in any further useless Sherlocking.

05-17-2003, 09:44 AM	#78
Starboy Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tallahassee, FL Reality Adventurer Posts: 5,276	HelenM, I have posted my reasons previously on this thread and you're welcome to view them. I do not think he is a liar because I perceive that he is loosing the argument, however it has been my experience that a Christian is not above lying for their faith. My policy is to assume the best about people until shown otherwise, however I still pay close attention to what they say, how they say it and what their motives may be. In the case of Wispers all of this just doesn't add up. Now I could be wrong, but so far I have seen nothing to change my mind and will not do so until I do. The rest of you are free to form and express any opinion you wish, however my opinion is not without some basis even if it was formed on first impressions. Again, please note, I can change my mind and will do so if it is merited. I do think that you might better understand my position if the moderator was not so merciless in editing my original post and only removed the parts that violated IID policy. Since this is an atheist board and Christians are visitors I see nothing wrong with calling a visitor to task if they strain credulity. Starboy

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