Talulah

I know that I hold onto some if not many of the ideas from my previous beliefs. I can only root them out one at a time as they come up in life.

My definition of Christianity intellectually is that whoever wants to call themself a Christian, is one. On another front though, I still have residuals of fundy thinking about who are *real Christians* and who aren't. I assume that will pass or fade with time.

I think in some ways I am a militant atheist, though not interested in recruiting or denouncing others beliefs. I am just very strong in my own beliefs and opinions. The 'new convert' syndrome, if you will.

I see a lot of what you are talking about, people who seem to have just switched their allegiance and passions from one target to another. I do think that some personalities are attracted to 'fundyism' (which by the way is a shameless ill usage of the actual word. We have even changed the meaning here to mean 'stong obstinate belief')

I don't think I am more intelligent or better than a Christian. I was thinking the other day, with no way to verify beliefs, how do I really know that is right and what is wrong, what is true and what is just an opinion of mine. It could be that every valued opinion of mine is in reality just as much a fantasy as any Christian belief in Jesus, or any ancient belief in Zeus.

But, that is just my take on it.

GeoTheo

I'm not an atheist but I see what your driving at.
For example many atheists seem to be biblical literalists.

exactamundo

I am personally and have always been an Atheist and in my search for topics and discussions on atheism I came across some writings by a man named Dan Barker who was a fundy christian minister/missionary for 19 years and has done a lot of writing about his "fall from grace" He wrote a very interesting letter addressed from God to theist asking three hypothetical questions that they should think about.

<a href="http://www.ffrf.org/bybarker.html" target="_blank">http://www.ffrf.org/bybarker.html</a>

Wyz_sub10

Geez, I could have written this nearly word-for word. This describes my experience pretty much.

It was a slow process that involved trying to reconcile my observations with what I had been taught in my RC experiences. Slowly, things broke down. I would say that I first had doubts of individuals beliefs (i.e. Adam and Eve, Noah's Ark) when I was 8 or 9. I finally stopped believing altogether by 27-28.

That's a long trip (but an interesting one).

wildernesse

Lady Shea:

I agree with you for the most part, but do you think that you could become a strong atheist facing those obstacles without becoming what I think is a "fundy" atheist; i.e. not valuing others' beliefs/opinions and becoming convinced of your superiority?

I think that these two things are what annoy people most about "fundies". And, yes, Talulah, I agree that we have taken over the word.

GeoTheo: I too, think that's an interesting observation. It's as if: Anyone who says they're a Christian is one, but we all know that all Christians totally believe a, b, and c. I think that the particular a, b, and c probably comes from the person's previous Christian background (or that of close family). I'm just interested to see if any people recognize that in themselves, and what they think about that.

--tibac

Laera

I know I still have a hard time not saying "Bless you" every time someone sneezes! Other than that, I'm not sure if I hold on to any "vestigial theistic tendencies/beliefs."

To an extent, now that I'm an atheist I find myself defending my former brand of liberal Christianity - not saying it's any more "true" but demanding that it get equal attention by those picking theism apart! There are different problems with fundy xianity than with my mother's brand of liberal protestantism, and I guess I prefer finding good arguments against my mother than against random rabid fundies (who are much TOO easy to tear up).

I never used the term "true xian" when I was a xian - there were just us and "the crazies down south" I'm glad I was raised with such a liberal view that allowed me to pursue science and engineering without fearing for my soul - but the emotional and psychological games that were played with me by the church were pretty bad, too! I feel more sorry for the kids of the crazies, but I hate to see all those liberal xian kids grow up with the cognitive dissonance, confusion, and guilt that I was given by my beliefs. I haven't even fully discovered all the linkages between my emotional issues and my former religion.

KnightWhoSaysNi

Hi Wildie

I was mostly raised in a non-practicing Christian family who weren't overtly religious, though I did attend a fundamentalist Christian school for 2 years. I was never strongly religious or knew much about theology at the time, though I did believe in God, Christianity, and Heaven and Hell.

I admit that I was perhaps quite confrontational and a little dogmatic at the first stages of my deconversion. I guess I felt resentful at first feeling "deceived" and I thought that all "religionists" were deluded somehow and that religion was mostly harmful to society. I'm really quite embarrassed about some of the things I did during this phase. This behaviour is quite similar to that of first time born again Christians who often seem very fervent and even fanatical sometimes. I guess that's just the way people are sometimes when they're raised and taught to think a certain way, and then have their worldview turned upside-down from examining the alternatives. Some people are able to keep a cool head and emotions changing their worldview, but I guess I wasn't one of them!

Today, I'm much more laid back about things. I don't even care if someone is religious or not, as long as they're nice people. In fact, if someone from 20 years in the future came back and told me I would become a theist again, my reaction would be "Oh really! That's interesting!" ... not "WHAT!? NO WAY! NEVER! NEVER!" I think dogmatism or fanatacism is the enemy, not religion, and fanatacism can be found in any worldview or ideology.

Perhaps I would only get a little emotional and hot under the collar when it comes to people who think their religious views gives them the right to destroy human freedoms and murder or oppress people who are different from them (like Al Quada Muslims, Aryan Nations, or Christian Reconstructionists).

[ September 05, 2002: Message edited by: Nightshade ]</p>

Laera

Because I was a liberal xian raised with my mom's funky beliefs (which included plenty of mental gymnastics to reconcile the whole Bible through "interpretation" with her view of the world as a physics major in college), I'm usually quick to jump in when someone tries to box in "all xians" or even "most xians" with some sort of list of common beliefs. Most of the times I've seen people attempt that, they go on to describe fundamentalist or at least literallist xians - neither of which includes my mom.

daemon

Just as a note, many atheists in their arguments assume biblical literalism as the only method to determine meaning in the Bible because either (a)they are arguing against or discussing some subject that is specific to Christians that believe some form of biblical literalism or (b)because they know of no other clearly defined method for understanding the Bible.

For example, the method I used in determining what biblical passages meant as a Christian was largely a combination of the traditions of the RCC and what sounded right to me, personally.

Now, as for my deconversion, it was a relatively drawn out one. I began a liberal Catholic, and had doubts about a variety of topics. My first major one was the existence of Satan as a malicious and powerful entity; the idea of such a being was ludicrous. Then Original Sin; the Genesis account was clearly not meant to be taken literally, according to the RCC, so what reason did I have to believe in Original Sin? After that, the coming of the Messiah becomes suddenly a pointless event; he isn't really saving us from anything now!

However, what finally really got me was the lack of any feeling of communication. I spoke to God, and received only silence. I spent many tearful nights crying out, and had no response. After three months of that, I pretty much gave up on the idea of a personal diety.

So, is my defintion of what a Christian is pretty much the same as it once was? I suppose, though I'm a little more inclusive than I was. I'm more inclined to call Mormons Christians, for example; if someone calls themselves Christian, I'm inclined to generally agree.

As to militant atheists, I tend to be a bit turned off by their aggression. I don't think it has anything to do with insecurity in beliefs nor immaturity, but rather an overly emotional response to religion.

Ab_Normal

Laera said:
Amen... erm, I mean, Right on!