Seraphim

Your family's all wiped out in a plane crash? Forgive me if I reminded you that you're an orphan.

My reply : Irrelevant to the question I asked.

[/b]Or you've forgotten all of those you mentioned are based on force, blind fanaticism and doing it for the sake of it's custom's aesthetics? [/b]

My reply : Hmph ... If you consider institution of marriage and family as something forced upon another, that's your problem. I'm sure you have no problem if your kids born as bastards.

[/b]I am sorry if my grammar insulted your intelligence. It has more to do than only dead people. [/b]

My reply : I asked for your example of this so-called "Forced" customs. Do you have one OR not?

I knew English is only a secondary language in your country, but even as a German I made my statements perfectly clear. No need to be interrogated by ignorance. And to see you get all emotional by anonymous internet users, give it a chill, brother.

My reply : Yes or No, thank you.

Haven't you said that the only way you can proceed through life is by fighting for what you believe in and force yourself to walk your path? Whether it will lead to salvation or damnation, it will be on your shoulders to find out. If you're quick in making decisions like this in your life, people can judge you as a coward. Coward because you think only of your own, and not for others.

My reply : Coward because I believe in something? Coward because I fight to lead my path? If been called a coward is the reward, I will be happy to accept it.

What about you? Do you think yourself to be very brave to be living for sake of others?

Gautama preached Buddhism because Enlightenment is for All, not for selected few, regardless whether one's karma is. It does not concern whether who deserves to be Enlightened or not. I tell you the truth my friend, the nihilistic philosophy of Nietzsche suits you more than Buddhism.

My reply : Wrong, Gautama did preach Buddhism to selected few ... those with strong hearts and what it takes to follow Buddhism. Those who couldn't keep up with Gautam due to falling to tempetation and all allowed to lead a normal life while striving to find their own balance in things.

Enlightment cannot be achieved if the person who seeks it have closed-mindness which is why I spoke against comparing Atheism with Buddhism here. For those who thinks Englightment is just a myth and following Buddhism not necessary to try and achieve Enlightment, then they should ask themselves WHY they bothered in the first place.

Don't patronise me, dear psychic. After all, you have better things to do than arguing with strangers online? If you don't want to be called "ignorant", check Google for ad hominem.

My reply : Nothing to reply about.

[/b]I thought you said the future is uncertain? [/b]

My reply : Yes, why else did you think I asked whether you wanted to bet?

I am so confused now I do not know what to argue. Are you going to educate them or not? Are you going to worry they'll waste your time and effort if they turn out to be scums of the earth?

My reply : Hmph ... you really don't understand about Buddhism and how Gautama worked ... do you?

NOONE can educate another, NOONE can stop another from being scum of the earth, NOONE can give Enlightnment or Salvation to another. The other must choose that path IF he wants such things.

If you want to make a change, then change yourself first. Lead your life properly first with your values and principles and IF you did a good job, others will follow your pursuit in trying to find their own ways and meanings in life. At least, that's how I think Gautama worked and how Buddhism spread.

Seraphim, how can you be so sure there are people out there who wants you to help defending Buddhism?! You treat it as if it is a bloody religion. Buddhism has nothing to be defended, let those who seek it seek it for themselves....

My reply : How are you so sure that no one there don't want me to defend it?
Those who seeks it will seek it for themselves, and when they don't achieve what they set their goal as, they will turn around and say that Buddhism is useless because it didn't give them happiness. Buddhism don't give you happiness, you give yourself happiness.

One question: why are you wasting your time here with me? For what? Don't try to interrogate my character for once, please?

My reply : I don't remember EVER asking who you are or why you behave in such ways. What are you talking about? If you feel offended, you can always walk away ... right?

Then when people are trying to be Gandhi, the lest you an do is refraining from making pessimistic comments. People call that "pest".

My reply : I make comments on their ways, NOT their intentions. Intentions maybe pure but your ways may not necessary be.

I think people will stop mocking your beliefs if you don't patronize them in the first place.

My reply : What use will that do? What purpose will I achieve if I started patronizing others just because they don't agree with me? I can only explain to them about what they think is right or wrong, I cannot change their behavior toward me since such action is waste of time.

It is up to them. My desires can mean their desires, too, no? The difference between them and puppet is they can oblige or not.

My reply : How sure are you of your own desires? How sure are you of someone else's desires?
In the end, you will force yourself upon others to get them to fullfil your desires, and those who do have different desires will be labelled as enemies.

Herbert Von Karajan

Seraphim, I will quit this argument based on moderator's discretion. I've rarely got into such trouble and do not want to mess my reputation here. Cheers.

Herbert Von Karajan

OMG, so sorry. Looks like I forgot to point out an important understanding of Seraphim's Buddhism views.

To teach you something? No, he become Buddha in attempt to defeat his own circle of life and death.

This is from page 2 of this topic. I don't recall (quote above)anything like that. Gautama went past the four gates of his palace and he sees four sufferings of birth, sickess, old age and death. He found the roots that people are living without purpose and not knowing roots of their misery - hence, karma. This is a famous story of Four encounters.

Why did Gautama leave his palace? To ease sufferings of other fellow beings. He did saw the misery of people outside his palace. Seraph, if Guatama did practiced Buddhism for his selfish purpose, how did he manage to figure out he would end like them in next reincarnations? And why Gautama preached his teachings after his Enlightenment? I would've skip all the nonsense of my previous posts and go to this point.

The mandatory thing to do walking the path of Enlightenment is to please fellow human beings. Doing good in order to boost good karma must suffice from good works for man. So, how do you prove again that Buddhism is nihilistic as you described? Care to prove to me the Eight Path to Enlightenment has nothing to do with doing good for Humanity?

Seraphim

OMG, so sorry. Looks like I forgot to point out an important understanding of Seraphim's Buddhism views.

My reply : I thought you don't want to get on the bad side of some moderator ... can't help but to drop the subject, huh?

Gautama went past the four gates of his palace and he sees four sufferings of birth, sickess, old age and death. He found the roots that people are living without purpose and not knowing roots of their misery - hence, karma. This is a famous story of Four encounters.

My reply : Keyword - STORY. You make Gautama sound like Jesus Christ who decided one day that he will swing on a cross for benefit of others.

Why did Gautama leave his palace? To ease sufferings of other fellow beings. He did saw the misery of people outside his palace.

My reply : Wrong again. When he sees sick person, he saw himself as sick, when he sees death person, he saw himself as nothing more than a cropse. In short, he saw his own life flash before his eyes and its end.

Seraph, if Guatama did practiced Buddhism for his selfish purpose, how did he manage to figure out he would end like them in next reincarnations?

My reply : wrong again. He didn't worry about his next reincarnation, he was worried about the path which he is on, path of a man living with desires and suffering. Karma and reincarnation came after as wheel of which a person lives, dies and reborn.

And why Gautama preached his teachings after his Enlightenment? I would've skip all the nonsense of my previous posts and go to this point.

My reply : Keyword - ACHIEVED ENLIGHTMENT. Gautama achieved what he sort after and only then (and not before) did he taught what he understood to others who WISHED to follow him.

The mandatory thing to do walking the path of Enlightenment is to please fellow human beings. Doing good in order to boost good karma must suffice from good works for man. So, how do you prove again that Buddhism is nihilistic as you described? Care to prove to me the Eight Path to Enlightenment has nothing to do with doing good for Humanity?

My reply : You (and ANYONE else here) try to achieve enlightment through pleasing others and you will achieve it when Hell freezes over.

Gautama preached that everyone is state of suferring because of their own desires, and you are saying that you are trying to achieve enlightnment by PLEASING others (by fullfilling their desires thus creating more suffering for them in long term). Sorry Pal, you been reading the wrong book again. We are not talking about Christ here, we are talking about Buddha.

Why don't you list down the 8 Paths and I will point out where in EACH and EVERYONE of it which states that goal of Buddhism or achieving Nirwana is not through pleasing others.

Herbert Von Karajan

My reply : Keyword - STORY. You make Gautama sound like Jesus Christ who decided one day that he will swing on a cross for benefit of others.

The difference between Jesus and Buddha is obvious. Jesus died for our sins. Buddha called Mankind to wash away their own sins.


My reply : Wrong again. When he sees sick person, he saw himself as sick, when he sees death person, he saw himself as nothing more than a cropse. In short, he saw his own life flash before his eyes and its end.

Mind showing me proof where did you read that?

My reply : Keyword - ACHIEVED ENLIGHTMENT. Gautama achieved what he sort after and only then (and not before) did he taught what he understood to others who WISHED to follow him.

And mind telling me how others knew of his Enlightenment? Did a dove flew over his head when he was Enlightened under the bodhi tree?


My reply : You (and ANYONE else here) try to achieve enlightment through pleasing others and you will achieve it when Hell freezes over.

Well, if you want to achieve Enlightenment based on you thinking, hell will never freeze over. One of the paths to Enlightenment is Right Conduct of Ethics that comprises of right action, right speech, and right living. You CANNOT run away from doing charity to fellow humankind in order to ease their sufferings. Right Intentions also means less judgmental and more understanding.

Your views are erronous because karma also means "what comes around, goes around". When you are doing good and your example is shown to others, then others will follow what you do. Nihilism is not in another path to Enlightenment, that is Right Conduct of Wisdom.

Seraphim, I didn't mean that pleasing men means pleasing those who are desturctive or dangerous to fellow men.

Why don't you list down the 8 Paths and I will point out where in EACH and EVERYONE of it which states that goal of Buddhism or achieving Nirwana is not through pleasing others.

I asked the question first. Now, who obliges?

Seraphim

The difference between Jesus and Buddha is obvious. Jesus died for our sins. Buddha called Mankind to wash away their own sins.

My reply : I don't think the different is that obvious to you.
In Buddhism, one's Karma or Sin cannot be washed away simply by performing some good deeds or merits, nor by achieving some good karma either. Whatever actions you make (good OR bad), you will achieve its fruits either in this life time or the next.

The goal of Buddhism is to achieve Nirwana - stopping any future existence of the Self from being born. "What doesn't have a beginning will not have an end" - Zen Buddhism.

Mind showing me proof where did you read that?

My reply : Why don't you go and read early part of Siddaharta Gautama's life till he left his castle?

And mind telling me how others knew of his Enlightenment? Did a dove flew over his head when he was Enlightened under the bodhi tree?

My reply : That is one of the defination the people had of him after he begins to teach Buddhism to people. They called him the Buddha - the Enlightned One. So what's the point of this question?

Well, if you want to achieve Enlightenment based on you thinking, hell will never freeze over.

My reply : as if it is frozen now ....

One of the paths to Enlightenment is Right Conduct of Ethics that comprises of right action, right speech, and right living. You CANNOT run away from doing charity to fellow humankind in order to ease their sufferings. Right Intentions also means less judgmental and more understanding.

My reply : Right conduct, action, speech and living - ALL of this is individual qualities which a person must master to become a good Buddhist. None of it has anything to do about pleasing others.

Ease someone's suffering? Sorry Pal, you have not been reading properly on Buddhism or what I been writing for the past few days. I have repeatly mentioned to you that the reason a person suffers is because of his or her own unlimited desires. In that context, do you think that it is wise, logic or even achievable task to say that you exist to please others?

Your views are erronous because karma also means "what comes around, goes around". When you are doing good and your example is shown to others, then others will follow what you do. Nihilism is not in another path to Enlightenment, that is Right Conduct of Wisdom.

My reply : Sounds like Jesus and what he could have expected of people to feel when they saw him hanging on a cross apparently for their sin.
Buddhism is nothing to do about showing examples, its about find your path and walking on it. No one will follow you if all you offer is path full of hardship and tasks which is hard to achieve, which is what Buddhism is.

Seraphim, I didn't mean that pleasing men means pleasing those who are desturctive or dangerous to fellow men.

My reply : Then you are not ahieving your goal and will never achieve Nirwana. You judge others for who they are and what they have done. Are you so holy that you could judge another fellow man?

Why don't you show me the type of people you wish to please?

I asked the question first. Now, who obliges?

My reply : What was the question again?

Herbert Von Karajan

My reply : Right conduct, action, speech and living - ALL of this is individual qualities which a person must master to become a good Buddhist. None of it has anything to do about pleasing others.

Ease someone's suffering? Sorry Pal, you have not been reading properly on Buddhism or what I been writing for the past few days. I have repeatly mentioned to you that the reason a person suffers is because of his or her own unlimited desires. In that context, do you think that it is wise, logic or even achievable task to say that you exist to please others?

Stop being a pot calling a kettle black. If you think karma only operates on individuals, keep it to yourself. Karma also controls equilibrium around you. Say if you chop down all the trees in the earth. Then the sun will scorch you to death. Say you kill all the snakes which takes care of your garden. Then the rats will overcomes your crops.

Same goes as karma. By not alievating other's sufferings, eventually you will suffer because of your selfishness. Environment is important for your conduct.

My reply : Sounds like Jesus and what he could have expected of people to feel when they saw him hanging on a cross apparently for their sin.
Buddhism is nothing to do about showing examples, its about find your path and walking on it. No one will follow you if all you offer is path full of hardship and tasks which is hard to achieve, which is what Buddhism is.

You do not need to be a role model. Once you practice the compassion of a Buddha, others will eventually follow.

My reply : Then you are not ahieving your goal and will never achieve Nirwana. You judge others for who they are and what they have done. Are you so holy that you could judge another fellow man?

You ask. I do not lose anything from this argument.

Seraphim

Stop being a pot calling a kettle black. If you think karma only operates on individuals, keep it to yourself. Karma also controls equilibrium around you.

My reply : Nonsense. You are nothing more than a spinning top which wants the world to spin just because you are spinning as well.

Say if you chop down all the trees in the earth. Then the sun will scorch you to death. Say you kill all the snakes which takes care of your garden. Then the rats will overcomes your crops.

My reply : Of course, bad things cause bad karma thus you will be suffering because of that. Why don't I show you some "good" intentions which also can lead to bad karma.

How about dealing with people with sexual orientations. Some will defend their orientation (free sex, transexual. lesbians etc) by giving excuse that it is their personal freedom. What will you say to that? Will you agree with them for sake of pleasing them? Will you disagree of them for sake of morality and risk having bad karma because you upset someone else?

Same goes as karma. By not alievating other's sufferings, eventually you will suffer because of your selfishness. Environment is important for your conduct.

My reply : Selfishness? You think by helping others, you are not being selfish? Ask yourself WHY you are helping others? Because of their suffering?

NO ... because you are selfish to begin with. You same like a theist hoping to get some merit/pahala for his work by doing some sort of "noble" work. You are seeking enlightnment by helping others. Anyone who seeks some sort of reward for his action IS selfish.

You do not need to be a role model. Once you practice the compassion of a Buddha, others will eventually follow.

My reply : Compassion of a Buddha? Don't make me laugh.
Buddhism is about walking the path to reach Buddhahood, NOT acting like one.

If you are descended to be a leader, you should lead others because of who you are, NOT because of who you wish to be OR who you pretend to be. If you wish to be someone else or pretend to be someone else, then it is nothing more than your own fragile EGO and sense of SELF trying to attach to your own physical attachments.

You ask. I do not lose anything from this argument.

My reply : You are right ... you and I have nothing to lose from this argument. My karma is not effected by your actions because I have not encouraged you to do bad things. IF you do so in the future, it is in your own hands.

Corgan Sow

How about dealing with people with sexual orientations. Some will defend their orientation (free sex, transexual. lesbians etc) by giving excuse that it is their personal freedom. What will you say to that? Will you agree with them for sake of pleasing them? Will you disagree of them for sake of morality and risk having bad karma because you upset someone else?

Didn't I say you must be careful in doing good works for those who are self-destructive or dangerous. [B]Now who's the judge now?[B]

NO ... because you are selfish to begin with. You same like a theist hoping to get some merit/pahala for his work by doing some sort of "noble" work. You are seeking enlightnment by helping others. Anyone who seeks some sort of reward for his action IS selfish.

No comment.

My reply : Compassion of a Buddha? Don't make me laugh.
Buddhism is about walking the path to reach Buddhahood, NOT acting like one.

Then stop act like you're Gautama himself.

If you are descended to be a leader, you should lead others because of who you are, NOT because of who you wish to be OR who you pretend to be. If you wish to be someone else or pretend to be someone else, then it is nothing more than your own fragile EGO and sense of SELF trying to attach to your own physical attachments.

Irrelevant. You gain nothing by keep assuming one's character.

My reply : You are right ... you and I have nothing to lose from this argument. My karma is not effected by your actions because I have not encouraged you to do bad things. IF you do so in the future, it is in your own hands.

I see we are indeed going nowhere. My points are clear enough presented here and we'll see what eventually comes. But you sounded like you're still uncertain. You don't sound different from atheists you despise just because they attack other people's beliefs. I have amused myself in this topic long enough. Farewell. Oh, grizzy better close this topic now.

Seraphim

Didn't I say you must be careful in doing good works for those who are self-destructive or dangerous. Now who's the judge now?

My reply : Why don't you point out who you consider good and what you consider good? You seems to be dodging this question since we begin this discussion.

Then stop act like you're Gautama himself.

My reply : And HOW do you know this is how Gautama could behave if he passed away 2500 years ago?

This is who I am, pieces of the puzzle of my existence ... I'm still finding the rest of the pieces and hopeful to find before I pass away as well.

Irrelevant. You gain nothing by keep assuming one's character.

My reply : Very relevant. Are you the one who started to say how we must be like Buddha, act like him and show compassion like him as well. You are changing sides now, are you?

I see we are indeed going nowhere. My points are clear enough presented here and we'll see what eventually comes.

My reply : You're the one who is not going anywhere. You choose Buddhism but your mental state seems to be still cling to Christianity (or Islam). Your points are as different as the nicknames you choose for yourself.

But you sounded like you're still uncertain. You don't sound different from atheists you despise just because they attack other people's beliefs. I have amused myself in this topic long enough. Farewell. Oh, grizzy better close this topic now.

My reply : Your opinion about me is not important, I know who I am and I care less what others think of me. My life is mine alone to command and I will live it the way I choose.

It seems to me that the focus of Corgan of coming here is not to debate but rather upset me enough to throw verbal abuse to him to the point that the moderator will close this thread. I have not abused anyone with verbal abuses or act like a jerk (except for some sarcasm here and there), so there is NO grounds for anyone to close this thread ... unless as an excuse to pamper Corgan and his Ego.

Oh yeah, before you leave Corgan, I like to thank you first. If someone asked me two months ago whether I believe in God and WHY I believe in God, I guess I couldn't have come out with proper answers. Spending time here brought new perspectives to my point of view and it strenghten my point of God and Universe. For that, THANKS.