David Gould

I have only just started down my philosophy road...

Have read The Myth Of Sisyphus by Camus and Thus Spoke Zarathustra by Nietzsche. Am reading some Locke and Hobbes at the moment. Sartre will have to go on my list.

Thanks.

Automaton

Damn those crazy existentialists!

tronvillain

While free will could result in a lack of free will, free will as you have defined it is not something a reasonable person or god would desire. In fact, it appears to be exactly the opposite of what most people would consider freedom.

David Gould

tronvillain,

After some discussion with a friend of mine, we came to the conclusion that what I am really talking about is choice, not free will.

1. God values human choice above all things (including preventing humans suffering in Hell).

2. It is possible for human choice to result in no human choice.

3. God can prevent this outcome and thus remove choice from humans.

4. God can allow this outcome and thus remove choice from humans.

Now, at this point I think the problem is in the first part. The fact is, God does not place any particular value on choice per se. The only choice God is concerned with is the choice to follow him or not.

Thus, the only solution for God is to intervene and prevent the no choice result because intervening does not remove the choice to follow him or not.

Thus, we have in the above a test for the existence of a god that values the choice as to follow him above all us.

If we develop a technology that enables us to remove such a choice from a human and we use it on someone, such a god cannot be real.

luvluv

David Gould, this idea is actually the premise of a book by C.S. Lewis called the Abolition of Man, though he did not pursue it from a free will standpoint.

My own answer would be that free will is not absolute. I don't think God has any hard and fast laws when it comes to this. Part of the Christian belief is that God does intervene in the world when humans ask Him to and when He deems it necessary (Calvary, answered prayer, miracles, etc). I tend to believe that if somewhere were to invent such a technology God would work through human beings to prevent it from succesfully being used, or to ensure that it's use was not long-lived. It could be that another person through his own free will would like for the mind control device not to work, and God could enable Him to stop it somehow. If God were to directly intervene on the person I think that would be an obvious infraction upon the free will of the person who invented the machine, but I don't think God would mind infringing on that one free will for the sake of the greater issue. We are, of course, assuming that such a device is possible or within our ability to produce. Such may not be the case.

At any rate, I don't see how God intervening to stop one person from taking away the free will of all other persons to be a premise that undoes the concept of free will. It just means free will may not be absolute, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Synaesthesia

David Gould,

Woa, I just wrote a letter asking you to clarify your meaning when I just realize that you already have.
Now I hate to be literal, but doesn't this suggest that any free choices by defintion cannot have any correlation to our understanding and perception of events? You qualify free choices as non-random, but musn't they be random with respect to the subject matter if they are truly independant "external events and experences" ? Could you clarify a bit? (To the extent that the naturally muddy and mystical concept of free will can be clarified at all. )

I like Quine's take on the issue, paraphrased, it runs something like, "Our wills are free insofar as our thoughts and actions conform to our desires, plans and expectations." This definition is, however, compatible with a deterministic universe and even some forms of 'mind control'. It isn't posed with the problems that more metaphysical formulations face.

[ May 03, 2002: Message edited by: Synaesthesia ]</p>

St. Robert

Our will is given freely by God to all people, because God delights in us choosing his will instead of our own. God could have made us robotic I suppose, but he prefers to build trust-based relationships. Not an easy task when we're taught in our culture to trust ourselves above all others.

How do we know God's will? By following the Messiah.

"For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and will raise him up at the last day." - Jesus (John 6:38-40)

Synaesthesia

"How do we know God's will? By following the Messiah."

How do we know God's will? By believing what we tell you about it.

That's epistemology for yeh.

St. Robert

If a person follows their own will, then they have designated themselves as God.

Answerer

Well, frankly speaking, I don't think that many of us here could think and make a choice freely nowadays especially with all the prejudices and discriminations introduced into our brains by the media, governments, peers, cultures and religions.
Therefore, I feel that it is more appropiate to consider the existence of free will first before we talk of having no free will.

[ May 08, 2002: Message edited by: Answerer ]</p>