Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Smitty13 · 07-26-2002, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 99Percent:
No, because existence just is. Think about it.

Run that by me again. If the universe did not begin to exist at a specific point in time, then it has existed (is) for an infinite period of time which is a logical absurdity.

Devilnaut · 07-26-2002, 06:59 PM

How is the universe existing for eternity more logically absurd than there being a point at which nothing, not even time, existed?

How is it less logically absurd than an "infinite" creator having existing for eternity?

Is this creator less "logically absurd" because he is supposed to exist in the realm of the *drum roll* supernatural, where anything goes and there are no laws, so we are free to make up whatever the hell we want? Is that it?

[ July 26, 2002: Message edited by: Devilnaut ]

Smitty13 · 07-26-2002, 07:23 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Devilnaut:
[QB]How is the universe existing for eternity more logically absurd than there being a point at which nothing, not even time, existed?

1. The series of events in time is a collection formed by adding one member after another.
2. A collection formed by adding one member after another cannot be actually infinite.
3. Therefore, the series of events in time cannot be actually infinite.

The philosophical argument against a universe existing into an infinite past, and the scientific evidence of the Big Bang both point to the universe "beggining to exist.

How is it less logically absurd than an "infinite" creator having existing for eternity?
Is this creator less "logically absurd" because he is supposed to exist in the realm of the *drum roll* supernatural, where anything goes and there are no laws, so we are free to make up whatever the hell we want? Is that it?

With all due respect, you have totally avoided answering the question, "did the universe begin to exist? I have only talked in the realm of philosophy/logic or science. Is there a part of my "argument" that is unacceptable?

Devilnaut · 07-26-2002, 07:26 PM

Smitty:

Quote:

1. The series of events in time is a collection formed by adding one member after another.
2. A collection formed by adding one member after another cannot be actually infinite.
3. Therefore, the series of events in time cannot be actually infinite.

What about a collection formed by adding one member after another for an infinite period of time?

I would like to add:

I would grant that if the big bang theory is true, then it would have been the beginning of the universe as we know it. This doesn't mean that it was the beginning of all existence, but that it doesn't seem possible to know what was before this moment.

[ July 26, 2002: Message edited by: Devilnaut ]

99Percent · 07-26-2002, 07:37 PM

Ok lets look at the following two sentences:

Existence just is.

God is first cause.

The problem with the second sentence is what caused God? The problem with the first sentence is...?

Smitty13 · 07-26-2002, 07:50 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Devilnaut:
[QB]Smitty:

What about a collection formed by adding one member after another for an infinite period of time?
You still have the issue that there cannot be an actual infinite.

I have enjoyed this dialogue, but I'm going out of town for a week. May I look to continue when I return?

Smitty13 · 07-26-2002, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 99Percent:
Ok lets look at the following two sentences:

Existence just is.

God is first cause.

The problem with the second sentence is what caused God? The problem with the first sentence is...?

First of all, I haven't claimed that God is the first cause. Secondly, I have made the statement "whatever exists had a beginning". Exactly what are you questioning?

99Percent · 07-26-2002, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Smitty13:


First of all, I haven't claimed that God is the first cause. Secondly, I have made the statement "whatever exists had a beginning". Exactly what are you questioning?

Then the point is why should there be a beginning to any existence?

Smitty13 · 07-26-2002, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 99Percent:


Then the point is why should there be a beginning to any existence?

Because of the impossibility of an actual infinite series of events. May we continue this discussion when I return next week?

99Percent · 07-26-2002, 08:11 PM

Ok, but just think in your weekend - does the past actually exist? No. It existed.

07-26-2002, 06:59 PM	#62
Devilnaut Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada Posts: 374	How is the universe existing for eternity more logically absurd than there being a point at which nothing, not even time, existed? How is it less logically absurd than an "infinite" creator having existing for eternity? Is this creator less "logically absurd" because he is supposed to exist in the realm of the drum roll supernatural, where anything goes and there are no laws, so we are free to make up whatever the hell we want? Is that it? [ July 26, 2002: Message edited by: Devilnaut ]</p>

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07-26-2002, 07:23 PM	#63
Smitty13 Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: California Posts: 22	[QUOTE]Originally posted by Devilnaut: [QB]How is the universe existing for eternity more logically absurd than there being a point at which nothing, not even time, existed? 1. The series of events in time is a collection formed by adding one member after another. 2. A collection formed by adding one member after another cannot be actually infinite. 3. Therefore, the series of events in time cannot be actually infinite. The philosophical argument against a universe existing into an infinite past, and the scientific evidence of the Big Bang both point to the universe "beggining to exist. How is it less logically absurd than an "infinite" creator having existing for eternity? Is this creator less "logically absurd" because he is supposed to exist in the realm of the drum roll supernatural, where anything goes and there are no laws, so we are free to make up whatever the hell we want? Is that it? With all due respect, you have totally avoided answering the question, "did the universe begin to exist? I have only talked in the realm of philosophy/logic or science. Is there a part of my "argument" that is unacceptable?

07-26-2002, 07:37 PM	#65
99Percent Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: my mind Posts: 5,996	Ok lets look at the following two sentences: Existence just is. God is first cause. The problem with the second sentence is what caused God? The problem with the first sentence is...?

07-26-2002, 07:50 PM	#66
Smitty13 Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: California Posts: 22	[QUOTE]Originally posted by Devilnaut: [QB]Smitty: What about a collection formed by adding one member after another for an infinite period of time? You still have the issue that there cannot be an actual infinite. I have enjoyed this dialogue, but I'm going out of town for a week. May I look to continue when I return?

07-26-2002, 08:11 PM	#70
99Percent Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: my mind Posts: 5,996	Ok, but just think in your weekend - does the past actually exist? No. It existed.

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