Koyaanisqatsi

And what is your response now that it has sunk in?

CX

What I want to know is how can someone be a rationally justified atheist before college. I remember in H.S. it was very trendy to be an atheist, but just saying, "I'm an atheist" hardly constitutes rational justification.

Ojuice5001

I suppose either of us could be right about this particular case. The statistics of conversion do indicate that you're right about people in general.

Ojuice5001

CX, don't ever say that to my sister. She's thirteen and she's an outspoken atheist, and no doubt would consider herself rationally justified. (But because my thinking is somewhat similar to yours, I do have hope that she will convert to something other than atheism or Christianity. (Ideally, of course, what I believe.)

cricket

Brighid,

It might help if people stopped inculcating children, but that won't happen because people don't want to stop. Wait and see what happens if a structural difference in temporal lobes is found. If there's proven to be a brain-based predisposition for theistic irrationality, it won't change anything! From others' POV it will be the atheists who have the faulty wiring!

It will be claimed that "atheists have inadequate temporal lobe structuring and hence lack an ability to comprehend religion. Much like those with color blindness cannot see red or green."

!

[ April 26, 2002: Message edited by: cricket ]</p>

Pomp

RRH,

My personal theory is more along the lines that there is some kind of emotional longing that religion fills for many people. I can't speak for all atheists, but I personally feel I am an atheist because I do not suffer from this longing.

That may be a portion of it. I am one of those atheists, however, who does suffer from that longing but cannot bring myself to believe against all evidence.

Pomp

CX,

What I want to know is how can someone be a rationally justified atheist before college. I remember in H.S. it was very trendy to be an atheist, but just saying, "I'm an atheist" hardly constitutes rational justification.

Although I didn't self-identify as such, looking back, I've been an atheist or, at least, a nontheist, since around 15 or 16. It doesn't take a high level of education to realize that there is no evidence for a theistic deity, although the more education one has, the more difficult it becomes to avoid the cognitive dissonance that accompanies theism in a modern scientific culture.

Tristan Scott

CX:

Was that a question? Are you referring to the 60% number and the 7-15% number? It's not clear what you're asking.

Let me get this strait. You are questioning my numbers and you have never heard of my source? Unlike Barna, Sigma xi is a secular organization. Here, maybe this will help, this is from their site:

Sigma Xi was founded in 1886 as an honor society for science and engineering. Today, it is an international research society whose programs and activities promote the health of the scientific enterprise and honor scientific achievement. There are nearly 75,000 Sigma Xi members in over 500 chapters at colleges and universities, industrial research centers and government laboratories. The Society has its headquarters in Research Triangle Park, North Carolina.



They did a cross sectional poll of phD scientists a few years back and asked which of them attended religious services regularly and those were the numbers. I would say that the Barna poll and the poll I cited were not asking the same question about the same thing. I wasn't comparing any statistics, you were.

Maybe you should chill. You seem very angry.

[ April 26, 2002: Message edited by: Tristan Scott ]</p>

Skepticwithachainsaw

No.

From my Perspective as a Teenager in England (a deeply Secular Country)* I have found that if anything Christians among my Generation seem to come from the Upper Regions of Intelligence (although only really among Girls&#8230 , indeed all of the top 4 achievers in my "High School" were Christian (and pretty much Fundamentalist ones at that&#8230 . This may only be the case at my local area but still…

*If you really can't stand oppressive amounts of Religion come here! The Weather's not very good, neither is the Transport system, and it's expensive but we have the unique benefit of having a country so Secular that there are Members of the Church of England that admit that they believe God is nothing but a Metaphor. Even the Fundamentalist Churches (one of which I belonged to not so long ago) don't actively engage in serious evangelisation and readily mix with just about anyone. (Hell we're getting Missionaries from Brazil being sent here )
Immigrants welcome. We don't demand any form of patriotism, well… apart from making jokes about foreigners and supporting us in Football…

Vorkosigan

What I want to know is how can someone be a rationally justified atheist before college. I remember in H.S. it was very trendy to be an atheist, but just saying, "I'm an atheist" hardly constitutes rational justification.

Well, CX, I've been an atheist since I was eleven or so, all my cognizant life. I pretended to be a theist until I was 13, and then announced one day that I was an atheist.

I became an atheist thanks to Isaac Asimov, Harry Harrison and Robert Heinlein. Deathworld 2 by Harrison I remember as being particularly influential. In that book a devout believer in Truth keeps betraying his comrades because of his beliefs. It neatly illustrates the problem with objective morals, and provides a rational basis for non-belief in gods, though certainly not the only rational basis I encountered at the time. Another thing I noticed as a kid was what hypocrites Christians were, and of course, how ridiculous the Bible stories are. All of that, combined with the authoritarian Catholicism of my 'rents, was enough to create an atheist at a young age. Was any of it rationally warranted? I thought so at the time, and still do now.

Vorkosigan