Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Silent Dave · 02-18-2003, 01:10 PM

In this EoG thread, in the midst of a discussion on theism vs. materialism, Tercel wrote the following:

Quote:

The word "mechanicalism" I was using was an invention of my own which I use to describe the viewpoint most prevalent among atheist scientists in the earlier 20th century just pre-QM in which the world was viewed in a strong-causal fashion and that it consisted of matter moving according to laws which allowed a single outcome given inputs and current system state . . . Indeed QM has blown a large hole in the position I call mechanicalism, yet there are numerous atheists (as far as I can gather: the majority) who still hold to some form of it.

So lets find out whether he's right. Are you a mechanicalist materialist as described by Tercel? For that matter, are you a materialist at all?

Dave

tronvillain · 02-18-2003, 01:17 PM

I believe the usual term is "mechanistic materialist." I am a materialist, but not necessarily a mechanistic one - it is possible that the principle of sufficient reason does not always hold. Some "randomness" may very well exist.

Silent Dave · 02-18-2003, 01:19 PM

Tron, that's pretty much what they told Tercel. His response was straight out of "Alice in Wonderland:" words mean what I want them to mean.

Dave

Clutch · 02-18-2003, 01:35 PM

Well, there's glory for you.

Sorry, dude, can't vote. I don't understand what "strong-causal" means. But since "mechanicalisticalityism" seems to imply determinism in Tercel's terms, I'd have to decline that much, at least. I don't know one way or another whether the universe is deterministic (thinking here of decaying radioactive atoms &c.) so I can't sign on either way.

A nice knock-down argument, that...

Eudaimonist · 02-18-2003, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Silent Dave
For that matter, are you a materialist at all?

Define materialist.

I think it's safe to say that I'm a metaphysical naturalist. I don't reject the existence of emergent natural phenomena such as consciousness, but I do reject a dualistic conception of reality where consciousness resides in some nonmaterial realm, and a reductive (monistic) rejection of consciousness.

I'm not a mechanicalist.

MzNeko · 02-18-2003, 06:16 PM

Erm, I don't think so, but I know the number of a good mechanic...

I think there's a reason I stick to the lower forums. sigh...

Shake · 02-19-2003, 12:24 PM

Um ... yeah, I think I have an idea of what these terms mean, but could you provide some definitions? Not everyone's gonna know what they mean, and folks like me don't wanna vote incorrectly, and find out later they screwed up.

Silent Dave · 02-19-2003, 03:23 PM

A materialist is one who believes that all particulars of existence are materially constituted. A mechanicalistic materialist as described by Tercel is one who believes that all particulars of existence are material and move according to laws which, given a certain input and current system state, permit a predictable outcome -- like a clock, or wind-up toy.

Dave

Shake · 02-20-2003, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Silent Dave
A materialist is one who believes that all particulars of existence are materially constituted. A mechanicalistic materialist as described by Tercel is one who believes that all particulars of existence are material and move according to laws which, given a certain input and current system state, permit a predictable outcome -- like a clock, or wind-up toy.

Dave

OK, forgive my slowness. So, a mechanicalistic materialist wouldn't believe in freewill then, would they? Or is it different because we are not wind-up toys (complexity issue)?

View Poll Results: Are you a mechanicalist materialist as described by Tercel?
Yes, I am a mechanicalist materialist.	1	5.00%
No, I am not a mechanicalist, but I am a materialist.	15	75.00%
No, I am not a mechanicalist, nor am I even a materialist.	4	20.00%
Voters: 20. You may not vote on this poll

02-18-2003, 06:16 PM	#6
MzNeko Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Long Beach, California Posts: 1,127	Are You A Mechanicalist Materialist? Erm, I don't think so, but I know the number of a good mechanic... I think there's a reason I stick to the lower forums. sigh...

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02-18-2003, 01:17 PM	#2
tronvillain Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 5,658	I believe the usual term is "mechanistic materialist." I am a materialist, but not necessarily a mechanistic one - it is possible that the principle of sufficient reason does not always hold. Some "randomness" may very well exist.

02-18-2003, 01:19 PM	#3
Silent Dave Banned Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Bloomington, MN Posts: 2,209	Tron, that's pretty much what they told Tercel. His response was straight out of "Alice in Wonderland:" words mean what I want them to mean. Dave

02-18-2003, 01:35 PM	#4
Clutch Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Canada Posts: 3,751	Well, there's glory for you. Sorry, dude, can't vote. I don't understand what "strong-causal" means. But since "mechanicalisticalityism" seems to imply determinism in Tercel's terms, I'd have to decline that much, at least. I don't know one way or another whether the universe is deterministic (thinking here of decaying radioactive atoms &c.) so I can't sign on either way. A nice knock-down argument, that...

02-19-2003, 12:24 PM	#7
Shake Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Folding@Home in upstate NY Posts: 14,394	Um ... yeah, I think I have an idea of what these terms mean, but could you provide some definitions? Not everyone's gonna know what they mean, and folks like me don't wanna vote incorrectly, and find out later they screwed up.

02-19-2003, 03:23 PM	#8
Silent Dave Banned Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Bloomington, MN Posts: 2,209	A materialist is one who believes that all particulars of existence are materially constituted. A mechanicalistic materialist as described by Tercel is one who believes that all particulars of existence are material and move according to laws which, given a certain input and current system state, permit a predictable outcome -- like a clock, or wind-up toy. Dave

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