Belem

Could we all agree on a single definition of Free Will???

Free Will from determinism ?

Free Will from coersion ?

I understand free will as the ability to make available choices. This means no coersion.

The Universe is probabilistic, so any attempt to say that everything is determined or fated by the Laws of Physics (or God) is BS.

Belem

Keith Russell

Belem:

But, there is coercion.

The question is, does the coercion come from within the individual, of from without...

Keith.

John Page

#439(a) - Human beings extert control over their environment through physical actions determined by mental processes. In this manner, humans display certain freedom from their external environment.

#16(c) - Human beings are unable to conscioously apprehend the mechanisms within themselves that determine the outcome of their mental activity. Hence, they are not free from the cause and effect that results in a mental decision.

#42 - Human beings can observe each other and consider their own behavior. This "mental detachment" creates an illusion of freedom of action, whereas the determinants are the processes hidden from the conscious mind (see #16(c).

Given the above, I would go for the second option in the poll "Our actions are determined by physical effects beyond our control" but modified as follows:

Our mental activity is determined by physical effects beyond our concious control.

Cheers, John

Keith Russell

John:

Your '#439(a)', #16(c), and #42--

--to what do those numbers refer?

Especially this: "Human beings are unable to conscioously apprehend the mechanisms within themselves that determine the outcome of their mental activity. Hence, they are not free from the cause and effect that results in a mental decision."

How can we consciously know that we cannot 'consciously apprehend the mechanism...that determines the outcome of...mental activity'?

Also, I would argue that even if we can and/or do consciously apprehend the mechanism, that still does not free us from the causes and effects that result in mental decisions.

Keith.

DRFseven

Well, most of us would agree that we cannot trace the myriad sequences of cellular events that took place in order to "set up" the thought , "I'm going to tie my shoes, now." And we know we don't know.

Keith Russell

DRF:

Nonsense.

If 'we cannot trace the myriad sequences of cellular events that took place in order to "set up" the thought...', then how do you know that these myriad sequences of cellular events really 'set up the thought'--in the first place?

Keith.

DRFseven

Because we can look at them on brain scans. Even before the advent of fMRIs, we knew that transmission of electrochemical impulses must occur in order for memory to occur, and that memory is necessary for cognition. When this process is disrupted, there is disruption in the thought processes; when this process does not occur, the throught process does not occur either.

Is it your opinion that the process of thinking occurs independently of cellular activity?

John Page

Keith:

I just made them up for fun, although I would love to say I got them from the Raelian Bible.
By observing people poking around in other people's brains (not joking this time)
I agree and disagree. I agree in the sense that I don't believe we can alter physical happenstance (e.g. deflect bullets from their path) just by thinking.

I disagree in the sense that once we discover/apprehend a behavioral pattern we have the ability to consciously compensate for it. For example, once you figure out how the stock market works you may change your investment strategy. So might others, thus financial markets become a behavioral guessing game based on anticipating the mental activity of others (as opposed to just a study of company fundamentals).

Cheers, John

tronvillain

crocodile deathroll:
No. As far as I can tell, any variety of free will worth wanting is compatible with determinism. Yes, I am a deterministic system which is the product of myriad external events, but the important thing is that I am. I exist and am capable of making choices (identifying the available options and selecting one of them), and am thus in control of my actions. Unless you define "free will" in such a way that no sane person would want it, I have free will.

Osiris

I am free to think
as I want too.
Some may nudge me,
and others leave me blue.
But there is only one,
who can take responsibility,
for the unexplainable action,
of the one I call me.

-Osiris