Corwin

Dunno about that. I've only had morphine once, and that was in the recovery room after surgery, so I don't remember it.

Demerol, on the other hand.... that I remember all too well. Ick. Ew. Ptooey.

Valmorian

</strong>

So where are all these studies that demonstrate the effectiveness of Acupuncture as compared to Optiates? All the scientific studies I've seen suggest it MAY have slight effects that are somewhat greater than a placebo. Opiates are a LOT more effective than a placebo.

</strong>

Anasthetics:
The first public demonstration of surgery under anesthesia took place on October 16, 1846, at the Massachusetts General Hospital amphitheater by Dr. John Collins Warren with anesthesia provided by Dr. William Morton (1). Despite their discovery 20 years earlier, ether and chloroform were not always available on the battlefield and some surgeons actually considered anesthesia an impediment to healing and avoided its use (2)

from: <a href="http://www.collectmedicalantiques.com/civilwar.html" target="_blank">http://www.collectmedicalantiques.com/civilwar.html</a>

Yes, SOME considered anasthesia an impediment. Still, it was in common use quite a bit before 30 years after its discovery, hm?

Also remember that in the 1800's our scientific measurement methods were considerably more coarse.

If Acupuncture really CAN meet the claim "As effective as opiates" then let's see the evidence!

Well for one, TEST IT. Remember, acupuncture is the product of a tradition. There's no scientific testing done to determine the basis for it, it's based upon "Meridians" and "Qi", not empirical data. In many cases, the cures supposedly effected through it are the worst kind of post hoc reasoning.

As noted here:
<a href="http://www.hcrc.org/contrib/basser/acup.html" target="_blank">http://www.hcrc.org/contrib/basser/acup.html</a>

Many acupuncture charts don't even have the same points on them, and often the insertion of a needle ANYWHERE on the body produces the same effect as those brought on by "professional" acupunturists.

It's easy to claim that western medicine just doesn't "get it", but if you really want to prove them wrong, it's easy. It's difficult to argue with consistently replicated scientific studies.

Who knows? Perhaps someday acupuncture will get that recognition, but I doubt it. It's had many years with a level of technology certainly advanced enough to determine the effectiveness of opiates, yet it is still considered to be "fringe".

Corwin

Well since apparently the NIH has been dismissed out of hand... I'm having to hunt pretty hard for anything on the web. Just about everything refers back to it. (Gee... most information sources about a medical treatment refer back to... the United States' major medical research organization.... go fig.)

<a href="http://www.halcyon.com/iasp/PCU96c.html" target="_blank">Here's a start.</a>

Oh... btw... Ki works. Get over it. I don't have an explanation for it, but I've used it, and unlike 'GOD HAS CHANGED MY LIFE!!!!' I and others like me can demonstrate it. Reliably. (Others better than myself, I'm very out of practice.) Fact remains that I should not be able to take a man twice my size and throw him flat on his back. I've done it. Honestly? I don't have an explanation that I'm genuinely happy with. I know it works, I've been given a mystical explanation as to why it works. I'll accept it tentatively until I or someone else figures out a more reliable explanation for the phenomenon. By that token you can accept Newton's theory of Gravitation, which really isn't terribly accurate. Einstien disproved it. Did apples hang in the air in the meantime? Nope. They still fell.

pulpyboy

FWIW The topic of chiropractic and research was discussed toward the end of this thread also in Science and Skepticism.<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=57&t=000010" target="_blank">Deepak Chopra</a>

There is continuing research being done and theories are changing due to that research.
Also, there is no such word as chiropracty. Most of us in the profession use the word chiropractic although it is also my understanding that chiropractics is also correct.

As far as accupuncture is concerned, I have not taken the time to look at the research. I would imagine that accupuncture suffers from a paucity of research funds just like chiropractic. Much of medical research is driven by the potential financial impact of what is being researched. There is not a financial windfall in chiropractic or accupuncture research.

Respectfully,
Michael

pulpyboy

Double post. My bad.

[ February 26, 2002: Message edited by: pulpyboy ]</p>

beachbum

surgery - thousands of dollars, covered by insurances, MediCal, Medicaid and Medicare.

acupuncture - $50.00/visit. Not covered Medicare, MediCal, Medicaid or many insurance companies.

Follow the money

[ March 01, 2002: Message edited by: beachbum ]</p>

MortalWombat

Oh Really?

<a href="http://www.csicop.org/si/9509/chi.html" target="_blank">http://www.csicop.org/si/9509/chi.html</a>

<a href="http://skepdic.com/chi.html" target="_blank">http://skepdic.com/chi.html</a>

Not quite. Newtonian physics is still taught and was good enough to send a man to the moon and send probes to the outer planets hundreds of millions of miles away. It turns out that it falls apart at extremely fast velocities and extremely large gravities, where Einsteinian mechanics does a better explanation of things.

(Edited to get the quote and URL thingies to work right)

[ February 27, 2002: Message edited by: MortalWombat ]

[ February 27, 2002: Message edited by: MortalWombat ]</p>

Corwin

Ok... you have a link to an article that gives an extremely shallow (and frequently inaccurate) view of Ki, essentially repeat OUR 'party line' about chinese communism.... (which isn't terribly communist at all... despite what the article says. The chinese have always had a fair dose of capitalism in their system... they just don't discuss it much.) and discusses a Bill Moyers special.

This is supposed to be convincing?

TollHouse

It tells me that you think beachbum's story is bullshit because it resembles the claims of some theists. Is that accurate?

Of course you could also replace "acupuncturist" with "trained medical professional". So what?

MortalWombat

No, I don't dispute that he no longer uses whatever medications he was on before and that he feels better now. What I have a problem with is the way anecdotal stories are used by people to claim that certain treatments work, and by implication, should work for everyone. The danger comes when other people read about anecdotal testimonies and drop their medical treatments in favor of other unproven treatments. It is not disputed that a positive mental attitude will have positive effects on people and the way they feel. It is also known that the case of most illnesses, there is a (albeit low) spontaneous remission frequency, and also that many illnesses can and do get better without any treatment at all.

Get back to me when the acupuncturists come up with decades of peer-reviewed scientific studies and double-blind trials to determine the effectiveness of their treatments. Or when they can even offer a scientific description of how their treatments work. Just saying "it worked for me" without empirical evidence sounds a whole lot to me like any number of religious or paranormal claims.