Scandal

Hi Helen,

I agree with your statement: "There's pressure to conform everywhere."

I am mostly a non practicing liberal cradle Catholic. My faith is shakey at times precisely because humans run the show...actually men run the show.

I'm attracted by the 2000 yr. history of the sacred but have chosen not to participate. I cannot trust organized religions which believe in absolutes. I believe this breeds arrogance which can lead to fundamentalism.

emotional

Why does the behaviour of men shake your faith? Hypocritical actions of believers have bearing on the truth of claims? Surely not.

Funny, in my case, it is that exactly that attracts me to faith: the belief in absolutes. In my eyes, a faith of no absolutes is not a worthy faith at all. I'm a fundamentalist at heart.

CJD

With all this talk of "liberals" and "fundamentalists," I found this comment by Richard Rorty to be interesting. I was wondering if folks out there agreed or disagreed with him on this point:

Borg, Spong, and their ilk come to mind . . . . Personally, I think Rorty overlooks the fact that liberals and fundies are bedfellows (though strange, to be sure).

To one of the OP's questions: The 'basis' of liberal Christianity is the exact same for that of fundamentalism—accommodation.

Regards,

CJD

Pyrrho

That would only show their poor understanding of what they read.


If one follows Jesus in the same kind of way as one might reasonably follow Russell, I would have far less problem with it. Still, there is more to recommend Russell than Jesus, so I wouldn't ever think it good to follow Jesus. (This is NOT to say that one should avoid doing anything that Jesus did, but I think that his teachings are generally more harmful than good.)

emur

Yep, had lots of jobs - worked in the grocery business, clerk at Kmart, electronics tech at Hercules Inc, substitute teacher, meterological technician at The Weather Channel, pastor, and some other assorted part-time jobs.

As for school - two associate's degrees, a bachelor's in Meteorology, and a Master of Divinity degree.

In all of my work and in all of my education, my experiences in the conservative church were by far the worst. Not even close to the secular jobs I have held. In ALL of my jobs except the pastorate, I have been treated with decency and respect by my co-workers and my bosses. I gave them a hard day's work. Always did my best. I made mistakes, but when I did so, my bosses were forgiving. When differences occured, we worked them out.

Contrast that to the conservative churches I attended and pastored. Usually there was some disagreement going on over doctrine. In one church the pastor resigned because gossip about him got so bad. He hasn't been back into full time ministry since. I've seen more church splits than flies on fresh crap. A church I pastored split because I wasn't Calvinistic enough. Those that left were gladly accepted into other churches, no questions asked. A friend's church split several years after mine over the charismatic question. He was forced to leave but fortunately his denomination (liberal - charismatics were trying to take over his church) moved him to a much better situation states away. I could go on and on.

How narrow are those beliefs? If a teacher changed views on some doctrine or practice (changed views on baptism, or tongues, or eternal security for example), would he be asked to step down? If yes, then he is being told what to believe. Because if he doesn't believe "properly", then he suffers consequences.

Helen, I am glad that you are having a positive experience with your church. Mine has been hell. That is one reason why I walked away from evangelical Christianity and am currently an agnostic, liberal kind of guy. In this way, I am free to explore and change and grow. I'm not shackled to a certain set of belief systems and practices based on another human's interpretation of the bible.

Whatever your pastor says from the pulpit, in the end, he is just another human being like you and me. He doesn't have a special channel to God and he doesn't speak the words of God. What you get from him are his views and his views alone. And if you are free to accept or reject those views without consequences, then that is a good thing.

Mel

Sabine Grant

Bonjour Scandal.... and I will add that you are not alone in fleeing from organized religions which believe in absolutes. I have found my faith to be healthier and more productive in terms of modifying what can be negative in my personality since I have stopped allowing humans to run God's show in my life.
I will seek guidances and listen to advices..... but when it comes to my personal understanding of God's character and how He interacts with me thru faith, someone else's proclaimed absolute truth can easily contradict what I experience in my faith. The key to stable and secure faith is to find the balance beween harvesting wisdom from other humans ( mostly in the way they behave or treat others rather than their words) and ignoring the demands to believe exactly as others do.

HelenM

A teacher who taught against church beliefs would be asked to stop doing so, I'm sure. But asking someone not to teach against something is not the same as telling them what to believe.

Yes, but the expectations were clear and the teacher failed to meet them. That's no different from any job, where if an employee deliberately goes against what his employer has said are conditions of his employment, he/she will be asked to change or leave.

I decide for myself whether I agree with what other humans say - about the Bible or anything else.

I don't think he'd deny that.

I don't think he claims a special channel to God nor would he claim that his words are the words of God unless he's quoting the Bible.

People don't even know what I accept or reject unless I say so; so how could there be consequences?

Oh, I suppose they could observe what I do - for example that I don't abstain from alcohol whereas my pastor does (I think). I won't suffer consequences for that; that's considered an area of freedom - for example.

It sounds like you've had worse church experiences than me.

Helen

emur

I believe it is. Consider this example. Say that your church is baptistic, and after further study a teacher in your church accepts the Presbyterian view of baptism of infants and rejects the baptistic view. This results in the teacher being asked to step down. The implication here is that the teacher is now "wrong", while the church is "right". Is it not telling the teacher what to believe when the church says "believe this or step down because your belief is wrong?"

So much for the church being different from "the world".

That's for sure!

Mel

Scandal

Hi emotional,

The Catholic religion is a patriarchal religion from A to Z. Wait, Catholics do venerate the Blessed Mother.

It is not men's behavior that shakes my faith but their doctrine of exclusivity and judgment; their hierarchy in the name of Jesus. I have to remind myself what it is that I believe Jesus' life was all about.

Scandal

Hola Sabine,

Thank you for the words of encouragement!

"The key to stable and secure faith is to find the balance between harvesting wisdom from other humans (mostly in the way they behave or treat others rather than their words) and ignoring the demands to believe exactly as others do."

Well said and I concur.