Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Marlowe · 04-02-2003, 02:20 PM

Interesting that no one in this thread has mentioned Carl Jung. While Freud's technique of psychoanalysis has been largely debunked, Jungian analysis is still alive and well, though behavioral psychologists tend not to be fond of it.

Jung collected a tremendous amount of data and himself interpreted around 80,000 dreams. He consistently found that interpreting the dreams helped patients resolve psychological difficulties.

A short description of Jung's theory on dreams and interpretation can be found here.

(Note: Don't misunderstand the use of the word psychic in these writings. Jung used it to mean the processes of the psyche, not any supernatural or parapsychological meaning.)

Jung was a prolific writer and his information on dreams, which is all intimately bound up with his entire psychological theory, can be found in his many books:

(1938). Psychology and Religion, New Haven: Yale Univ. Press

(trans. H. & C. Baynes. (). Two Essays on Analytical Psychology., London: Bailliere, Tindall & Cox.

(1913). The theory of psychoanalysis, Psychoanal. Rev., 1: 1-40.

(1914). The theory of psychoanalysis, Psychoanal. Rev., 1:153-177.c

(1914). The theory of psychoanalysis, Psychoanal. ev., 1:260-284.c

(1914). The theory of psychoanalysis, Psychoanal. Rev., 1:415-430.c

(1915). Psychoanalysis, Psychoanal. Rev., 2:241-259.

(1915). The theory of psychoanalysis, Psychoanal. Rev., 2: 29-51.

(1928). Dis Biziehungen sqischen dem Ich and dem Unbewussten., Darmstadt: Rechl-Verlag.

(1933). Modern Man in Search of a Soul., New York: Harcourt Brace.

(1939). The Integration of the Personality, New York: Farrar & Rinehart

(1940). The Integration of the Personality., London: Kegan Paul, Trench, Trubner &Co.

(1948). On the Conception of Psychic Energy and the Nature of Dreams., Zurich: Rascher Verlag

Jung, C. & Kerenyi, C. (1949). Essays on a Science of Mythology., N.Y.: Pantheon Books

(Jacobi, J. ed.) (1953). Psychological Reflections: An Anthology of the Writings of C. G. Jung., London: Routledge and Kegan Paul.

(1963). Memories, Dreams, Reflections., London: Collins and Routledge.

C.G. Jung : Letters 1906-1950 (Bollingen Series, Xcv : 1)
Gerhard Adler, et al / Hardcover / Published 1992

C.G. Jung : Letters, 1951-1961 (Bollingen Series Xcv : 2)
Gerhard Adler(Editor), et al / Hardcover / Published 1992

The Collected Works of C. G. Jung, No. 1 : Psychiatric Studies
Carl Gustav Jung, R. F. Hull (Editor) / Paperback / Published 1983

The Collected Works of C. G. Jung, No. 1 : Psychiatric Studies
Carl Gustav Jung, R. F. Hull (Editor) / Hardcover / Published 1970

The Collected Works of C. G. Jung, No. 2 : Experimental Researches
Carl Gustav Jung, Herbert Read (Editor) / Hardcover / Published 1974

The Collected Works of C. G. Jung, No. 3 : Psychogenesis of Mental Disease
Carl Gustav Jung, R. F. Hull (Translator) / Hardcover / Published 1960

The Collected Works of C. G. Jung, No. 4 : Freud and Psychoanalysis
Carl Gustav Jung, et al / Hardcover / Published 1961

The Collected Works of C. G. Jung, No. 5 : Symbols of Transformation
Carl Gustav Jung, R. F. Hull (Editor) / Hardcover / Published 1967

The Collected Works of C. G. Jung, No. 6 : Psychological Types
Carl Gustav Jung, R. F. Hull (Editor) / Hardcover / Published 1971

The Collected Works of C. G. Jung, No. 7 : Two Essays on Analytical Psychology
Carl Gustav Jung, R. F. Hull (Translator) / Hardcover / Published 1966

The Collected Works of C. G. Jung, No. 8 : The Structure and Dynamics of the Psyche
Carl Gustav Jung, et al / Hardcover / Published 1970

The Collected Works of C. G. Jung, No. 9 : The Archetypes and the Collective Unconscious
Carl Gustav, Jung, Herbert Read (Editor) / Hardcover / Published 1968

The Collected Works of C. G. Jung, No. 10 : Civilization in Transition
Carl Gustav Jung, Herbert Read (Editor) / Hardcover / Published 1970

The Collected Works of C. G. Jung, No. 11 : Psychology and Religion - West and East
Carl Gustav Jung, Herbert Read (Editor) / Hardcover / Published 1969

The Collected Works of C. G. Jung, No. 12 : Psychology and Alchemy
Carl Gustav, Jung, William McGuire (Editor) / Hardcover / Published 1968

The Collected Works of C. G. Jung, No. 13 : Alchemical Studies
Carl Gustav, Jung, Herbert Read (Editor) / Hardcover / Published 1983

The Collected Works of C. G. Jung, No. 14 : Mysterium Coniunctionis
Carl Gustav, Jung, Herbert Read (Editor) / Hardcover / Published 1970

The Collected Works of C. G. Jung, No. 15 : The Spirit in Man, Art, and Literature
Carl Gustav, Jung, Herbert Read (Editor) / Hardcover / Published 1971

The Collected Works of C. G. Jung, No. 16 : The Practice of Psychotherapy
Carl Gustav Jung, et al / Hardcover / Published 1966

The Collected Works of C. G. Jung, No. 18 : The Symbolic Life
Carl Gustav Jung, William McGuire (Editor) / Hardcover / Published 1977

The Collected Works of C. G. Jung, No. 20 : General Index
Carl Gustav, Jung, et al / Hardcover / Published 1979

General Bibliography of C.G. Jung's Writings (Bollingen Series, 20)
Lisa Ress, et al / Hardcover / Published 1992

The Practice of Psychotherapy : Essays on the Psychology of the Transference and Other Subjects (Bollingen Series Xx, Vol 16)
R.F.C. Hull(Translator), Carl Gustav Jung / Paperback / Published 1985

Nowhere357 · 04-02-2003, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tronvillain
Nowhere357:

Well, what exactly do you think creativity is? Unless you propose that it is some magical ability, it is the product of the brain operating - the product of neurons firing. Now, if old and new neural pathways are being strengthened along with some degree of random firing, you have the potential for novel combinations to occur without the conscious mind having to make sense of them all. Why should "creativity" be anything more than old ideas thrown together with some degree of randomness thrown in?

Oh, and you are right that I do not recall many dreams. Still, while I seldom recall dreams, I have recalled many over my lifetime and none of them have been falling, flying, slow motion, or exposure dreams.

I don't know what creativity is, but often I think I can recognize it. Sometimes I'm rather creative myself, yet still I don't know what it is.

Magic? That's way too loaded a term. I can with ease imagine a natural explanation that involves more than mere emergence. Also, emergence no more explains creativity, than it does life itself. If you accept emergence as adequate explanation, that is fine, but that is opinion, and not fact.

Creativity as randomness has some merit (especially as I look at some modern art

). I point out that even randomness is a mysterious property. Why should creativity involve more than just randomness? Because creativity increases order, randomness does not.

Calzaer · 04-02-2003, 08:35 PM

Kally: Since it's no big mystery... why, exactly, do we dream? And why is it that people who never fall into REM sleep suffer from sleep deprivation symptoms?

MadKally · 04-02-2003, 10:32 PM

Freudian Slip: Do Dreams Still Have a Role in Psychiatry?
By Neil Osterweil - Reviewed By Dr. Jacqueline Brooks

March 12, 2001 [quote]
-- Sigmund Freud called dreams the "royal road to the unconscious," but in many circles his ideas are as fashionable today as high-button shoes, corsets, and the turkey trot.

Scratch a psychiatrist today, and you'll more likely find under the surface someone who believes dreams are not a "royal road" but a blind alley filled with the randomly discarded trash of a day's experience.

HUGE POST DELETED BECAUSE MY BRAIN IS DISABLED!

I'm so tired I don't know if I answered a question that pertained to anything. Maybe you know and are getting ready to tell us?

http://www.webmd.com

I wrote a long rambling post but when I read it again just now, It didn't make any sense to me.

Nowhere357 · 04-02-2003, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MadKally
Freudian Slip: Do Dreams Still Have a Role in Psychiatry?
By Neil Osterweil - Reviewed By Dr. Jacqueline Brooks

Quote:

Scratch a psychiatrist today, and you'll more likely find under the surface someone who believes dreams are not a "royal road" but a blind alley filled with the randomly discarded trash of a day's experience.

I have already shown that dreams allow access to creativity. IMO that is sufficient reason to discard this interpretation.

In addition, google 'scientific dream research' and see that if Jung is mentioned, it is probably in a negative fashion.

ps418 · 04-03-2003, 05:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nowhere357
I have already shown that dreams allow access to creativity. IMO that is sufficient reason to discard this interpretation.

In addition, google 'scientific dream research' and see that if Jung is mentioned, it is probably in a negative fashion.

I think you all are talking past each other. The question about whether dream interpretation in the Feeudian/Jungian sense is considered a "scientific" discipline is clearly answered "no." But this is not to say that REM sleep has no function whatsoever, because it may. You claim to have shown that dreams allow access to creativity -- you've shown no such thing. People spend a a third to a quarter or their lives in various sleep states. By far most of our creative moments and moments of insight occur when we are awake, but it is hardly a surprise that sometimes this happens in a sleep state.

Quote:

Marlow:
Interesting that no one in this thread has mentioned Carl Jung. While Freud's technique of psychoanalysis has been largely debunked, Jungian analysis is still alive and well, though behavioral psychologists tend not to be fond of it.

Jungian dream analysis, which is formally just like Freudian analysis with different symbols (e.g. Jung's shadow vrs. Freud's Id), suffers all the same problems as Freudian dream analysis, is hardly "alive and well" either amongst psycholgists and psychiatrists. The only place Jung lives on is in new age books, and there by virture of his writings on synchronicity and collective unconscious rather than his writings on dream analysis.

Quote:

Calzaer: Kally: Since it's no big mystery... why, exactly, do we dream? And why is it that people who never fall into REM sleep suffer from sleep deprivation symptoms?

Obviously people who do not sleep at all suffere from sleep deprivation syndrome. But what is your source for negative effects specifically of REM-deprivation? It would not surprise me to find that REM sleep serves some function, but the evidence is somewhat ambiguous that REM deprivation specifically, rather than sleep deprivation generally, produces cognitive impairments. Some people for instance have taken antidepressants such as MAOIs that all but eliminate REM sleep for weeks or months on end, and seem to suffer no noticable impairment. From Vertes and Eastman (2000):

Quote:

Of the antidepressants, the MAOIs have the strongest suppressive action on REM sleep. A number of early reports using normal and patient populations showed that MAOIs virtually completely (or completely) suppressed REM sleep for weeks to several months. In an initial study, Wyatt et al. (1969) reported that the MAOIs, isocarboxazid, pargyline hydrochloride, and mebanazine, reduced REM from about 20-25% of TST to 9.7%, 8.6% and 0.4% of TST, respectively, and that in one subject REM was virtually eliminated for two weeks.

In a subsequent report in anxious-depressed patients, Wyatt and co-workers (1971a) described the remarkable findings that the MAOI, phenelzine (Nardil), given at therapeutic doses, completely abolished REM sleep in six patients for periods of 14 to 40 days. There was a gradual decline in amounts of REM sleep for the first two weeks on the drug and a total loss of REM after 3-4 weeks. In a complementary study with narcoleptic patients, Wyatt et al. (1971b) reported that phenelzine completely abolished REM in 5 of 7 patients for the following lengths of time: 14, 19, 93, 102 and 226 days. They stated that: "The complete drug-induced suppression of REM sleep in these patients is longer and more profound than any previously described"; and further that "No adverse psychological effects were noted during the period of total rapid-eye-movement suppression".

Several other studies have similarly shown that MAOIs essentially abolish REM sleep. Akindele et al. (1970) reported that phenelzine completely eliminated REM sleep in four subjects (one normal and 3 depressed) for 2 to 8 weeks, and addressing possible behavioral consequences stated that "Far from this leading to disastrous effects on mental functions, as some might have proposed, clinical improvement began". Kupfer and Bowers (1972) showed that phenelzine abolished REM in 7 of 9 patients, and drastically suppressed it in remaining patients from pre-drug values of 23.1% and 24.8% of TST to 1.4% and 0.5% of TST, respectively. Finally, Dunleavy and Oswald (1973) reported that phenelzine eliminated REM in 22 depressed patients.

[If REM sleep were involved in memory consolidation, it would seem that the total loss of REM with MAOIs for periods of several months to a year (Wyatt et al. 1969, 1971a, 1971b; Kupfer & Bowers 1972; Dunleavy & Oswald 1973) would affect memory. As indicated above, the loss of REM did not appear to be associated with any noticeable decline in cognitive functions in these largely patient populations. These studies, however, made no systematic attempt to assess the effects of MAOIs on cognition.

Other reports, however, have examined the actions of MAOIs, primarily phenelzine, on cognition/memory and described an essential lack of impairment (Rothman et al. 1962; Raskin et al. 1983; Georgotas et al. 1983, 1989). For example, Raskin et al. (1983) observed no adverse effects of phenelzine on a battery of 13 psychomotor and cognitive tasks in a heterogeneous population of 29 depressed patients. Similarly, Georgotas and colleagues (Georgotas et al. 1983, 1989) reported that elderly depressed patients given phenelzine for 2 to 7 weeks showed no alteration in several measures of cognitive function, and concluded that the lack of adverse effects with phenelzine suggests that it is preferable to TCAs (see below) in the treatment of depression in the geriatric population.

There are also individuals who have suffered brain-stem injuries that eliminate REM sleep altogether, but appear to possess normal cognitive functioning:

Quote:

Although rare, there have been a few reports of patients with bilateral pontine lesions who are conscious, ambulatory and verbally communicative (Osorio & Daroff 1980; Lavie et al. 1984; Valldeoriola et al. 1993). It appears that the lesions in these patients are less extensive than those with the locked-in syndrome. Nonetheless, like patients with the locked-in syndrome, they lack REM sleep (Osorio & Daroff, 1980; Valldeoriola et al., 1993). Osorio and Daroff (1980) described two such patients. Both of them showed similar sleep deficiencies, the most prominent of which was a complete loss of REM sleep. It was further pointed out that aside from minor neurological deficits, the patients led normal lives. The authors stated: "Our two patients are the first awake and ambulatory humans in whom total absence of REM sleep has been demonstrated. These REM deprived patients behaved entirely appropriately and were by no means psychotic." The "psychotic" reference alludes to the early notion, subsequently dispelled (Vogel 1975), that long term REM deprivation produces psychosis.

Lavie et al. (1984) described the interesting case of a man who at the age of twenty suffered damage to the pontine region of the brainstem from shrapnel fragments from a gunshot wound. Following the injury, the man was comatose for 10 days, remained in critical condition for another two weeks and then recovered. An examination of his patterns of sleep at the age of 33 revealed that he essentially lacked REM sleep; that is, REM was absent on most nights and averaged 2.25% of TST on the other nights. Similar to the study by Osorio and Daroff (1980), Lavie et al. (1984) reported that despite the virtually total loss of REM sleep, the man led a normal life. For instance, following the injury the man completed college, then law school and at the time of the study was a practicing attorney.

Vertes, R.P., and Eastman, K.E., 2000. The case against memory consolidation in REM sleep. Behavioral and Brain Sciences 23 (6).

Patrick

Marlowe · 04-03-2003, 08:01 AM

Quote:

In addition, google 'scientific dream research' and see that if Jung is mentioned, it is probably in a negative fashion.

No offense, but try reading some books on Jung and Jungian analysis rather than just what's on the net. As great as the internet is, it hardly gives you a full view of what is important in psychological theory.

Quote:

Jungian dream analysis, which is formally just like Freudian analysis with different symbols (e.g. Jung's shadow vrs. Freud's Id),

Jungian dream analysis is based on an entirely different theoretical model than Freud's, which is a large part of why the two had a radical split in 1912. There is not even a superficial analogy between the shadow of Jung's theory and the id of Freud's. The only thing the two systems share is the idea that dreams provide psychological insight into a patient.

Quote:

suffers all the same problems as Freudian dream analysis, is hardly "alive and well" either amongst psycholgists and psychiatrists.

Really? I live in a fairly small city (250,000) where there are at least a dozen quite successful Jungian analysts.

Here is a page of the Washington Society of Jungian Psychology listing a number of PhD and psychologists speaking on Jung's theories.

Here is the New England Society of Jungian Analysts/ CG Jung Institute of Boston.

These folks seem to be doing all right to me.

Quote:

The only place Jung lives on is in new age books, and there by virture of his writings on synchronicity and collective unconscious rather than his writings on dream analysis.

Actually Jung's work on synchronicity, the collective unconscious, anima/ animus and the shadow are all intimately bound up with his theories of dream analysis, so you really can't say that his work lives on by virtue of one and not the other, since they are inseparable. His books also are not found in the New Age section of a bookstore, but the psychology section. Go to your local Barnes & Noble and check.

Thank you for the fascinating article excerpts on REM deprivation though. If you researched Jung as well you might find some more accurate information on his theories. Just because many folks of varying respectability have glommed onto his theories doesn't mean his theories are at fault.

ps418 · 04-03-2003, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Marlowe:
No offense, but try reading some books on Jung and Jungian analysis rather than just what's on the net. As great as the internet is, it hardly gives you a full view of what is important in psychological theory.

No offense, Marlowe, but try asking me about where I get my info before you make such totally erroneous assumptions about where and how I have developed my views on Jung. For your information, I read at least half of Jungs collected works bewteen 1994 and 1998 when I was interested in psychoanalysis, including his autobio where he discusses in detail his break from Freud.

Quote:

Jungian dream analysis is based on an entirely different theoretical model than Freud's, which is a large part of why the two had a radical split in 1912. There is not even a superficial analogy between the shadow of Jung's theory and the id of Freud's. The only thing the two systems share is the idea that dreams provide psychological insight into a patient.

What to you is an "entirely different theretical model" is to me a minor variation on Freud. Seen in the context of every other psychological theories, Freud and Jung agreed on quite a bit. I'm not saying that there are no diferences, but that to me they are relatively trivial.

And to say that there is "not even a superficial analogy" between Freud's id and Jung's shadow is simply ridiculous on its face. There are clear analogies. Quoting from this site on Jungian analysis:

Quote:

The Shadow is the focus for desires, tendencies, memories and experiences that are rejected by the individual as incompatible with the persona, and contrary to social standards and ideals. It represents what we consider to be inferior in our personality. It is in that respect like Freud's id

Quote:

Really? I live in a fairly small city (250,000) where there are at least a dozen quite successful Jungian analysts.

Successful in earning money? Maybe. Or successful in producing and demonstraing therapeutic results? or successful in producing a scientific, falsifiable model of dream symbolism and interepretation? What percentage of people seeking psychotherapy seek Jungian analysis, or can afford it? What percentage of people trained in psychotherapy as Jungian analysts? By all these measures, I consider absurd to say that Jungian analysis "alive and well."

Patrick

ps418 · 04-03-2003, 09:56 AM

Speaking of Jungian Analysis being "alive an well," this page states:

Quote:

Jungian analysts in the UK number about three hundred and thirty five, less than an average church, synagogue or mosque. Like any other religious society, there are differences of belief and myth, differences in narrative style and structure - some, for example, cannot see our community as having any religious dimension, others cannot see it as having any other dimension. To some it's a hobby, to others a profession, to others, a way of life - therefore, subject to change.

This page estimates that there are ~2,500 Jungian analysts worldwide. The article, C.G. Jung and Jungian Analysis - What Is It, and Is It For You?, does a fine job of demonstrating the unscientific, imagination-based approach of Jungian analysis. You can also browse their bibliography and see the latest Jungian "research".

MadKally · 04-03-2003, 11:37 AM

Quote:

postsed by ps418:
I think you all are talking past each other. The question about whether dream interpretation in the Feeudian/Jungian sense is considered a "scientific" discipline is clearly answered "no."

I do believe you are right.

Kally

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04-02-2003, 02:20 PM	#31
Marlowe Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Little Rock Posts: 51	Interesting that no one in this thread has mentioned Carl Jung. While Freud's technique of psychoanalysis has been largely debunked, Jungian analysis is still alive and well, though behavioral psychologists tend not to be fond of it. Jung collected a tremendous amount of data and himself interpreted around 80,000 dreams. He consistently found that interpreting the dreams helped patients resolve psychological difficulties. A short description of Jung's theory on dreams and interpretation can be found here. (Note: Don't misunderstand the use of the word psychic in these writings. Jung used it to mean the processes of the psyche, not any supernatural or parapsychological meaning.) Jung was a prolific writer and his information on dreams, which is all intimately bound up with his entire psychological theory, can be found in his many books: (1938). Psychology and Religion, New Haven: Yale Univ. Press (trans. H. & C. Baynes. (). Two Essays on Analytical Psychology., London: Bailliere, Tindall & Cox. (1913). The theory of psychoanalysis, Psychoanal. Rev., 1: 1-40. (1914). The theory of psychoanalysis, Psychoanal. Rev., 1:153-177.c (1914). The theory of psychoanalysis, Psychoanal. ev., 1:260-284.c (1914). The theory of psychoanalysis, Psychoanal. Rev., 1:415-430.c (1915). Psychoanalysis, Psychoanal. Rev., 2:241-259. (1915). The theory of psychoanalysis, Psychoanal. Rev., 2: 29-51. (1928). Dis Biziehungen sqischen dem Ich and dem Unbewussten., Darmstadt: Rechl-Verlag. (1933). Modern Man in Search of a Soul., New York: Harcourt Brace. (1939). The Integration of the Personality, New York: Farrar & Rinehart (1940). The Integration of the Personality., London: Kegan Paul, Trench, Trubner &Co. (1948). On the Conception of Psychic Energy and the Nature of Dreams., Zurich: Rascher Verlag Jung, C. & Kerenyi, C. (1949). Essays on a Science of Mythology., N.Y.: Pantheon Books (Jacobi, J. ed.) (1953). Psychological Reflections: An Anthology of the Writings of C. G. Jung., London: Routledge and Kegan Paul. (1963). Memories, Dreams, Reflections., London: Collins and Routledge. C.G. Jung : Letters 1906-1950 (Bollingen Series, Xcv : 1) Gerhard Adler, et al / Hardcover / Published 1992 C.G. Jung : Letters, 1951-1961 (Bollingen Series Xcv : 2) Gerhard Adler(Editor), et al / Hardcover / Published 1992 The Collected Works of C. G. Jung, No. 1 : Psychiatric Studies Carl Gustav Jung, R. F. Hull (Editor) / Paperback / Published 1983 The Collected Works of C. G. Jung, No. 1 : Psychiatric Studies Carl Gustav Jung, R. F. Hull (Editor) / Hardcover / Published 1970 The Collected Works of C. G. Jung, No. 2 : Experimental Researches Carl Gustav Jung, Herbert Read (Editor) / Hardcover / Published 1974 The Collected Works of C. G. Jung, No. 3 : Psychogenesis of Mental Disease Carl Gustav Jung, R. F. Hull (Translator) / Hardcover / Published 1960 The Collected Works of C. G. Jung, No. 4 : Freud and Psychoanalysis Carl Gustav Jung, et al / Hardcover / Published 1961 The Collected Works of C. G. Jung, No. 5 : Symbols of Transformation Carl Gustav Jung, R. F. Hull (Editor) / Hardcover / Published 1967 The Collected Works of C. G. Jung, No. 6 : Psychological Types Carl Gustav Jung, R. F. Hull (Editor) / Hardcover / Published 1971 The Collected Works of C. G. Jung, No. 7 : Two Essays on Analytical Psychology Carl Gustav Jung, R. F. Hull (Translator) / Hardcover / Published 1966 The Collected Works of C. G. Jung, No. 8 : The Structure and Dynamics of the Psyche Carl Gustav Jung, et al / Hardcover / Published 1970 The Collected Works of C. G. Jung, No. 9 : The Archetypes and the Collective Unconscious Carl Gustav, Jung, Herbert Read (Editor) / Hardcover / Published 1968 The Collected Works of C. G. Jung, No. 10 : Civilization in Transition Carl Gustav Jung, Herbert Read (Editor) / Hardcover / Published 1970 The Collected Works of C. G. Jung, No. 11 : Psychology and Religion - West and East Carl Gustav Jung, Herbert Read (Editor) / Hardcover / Published 1969 The Collected Works of C. G. Jung, No. 12 : Psychology and Alchemy Carl Gustav, Jung, William McGuire (Editor) / Hardcover / Published 1968 The Collected Works of C. G. Jung, No. 13 : Alchemical Studies Carl Gustav, Jung, Herbert Read (Editor) / Hardcover / Published 1983 The Collected Works of C. G. Jung, No. 14 : Mysterium Coniunctionis Carl Gustav, Jung, Herbert Read (Editor) / Hardcover / Published 1970 The Collected Works of C. G. Jung, No. 15 : The Spirit in Man, Art, and Literature Carl Gustav, Jung, Herbert Read (Editor) / Hardcover / Published 1971 The Collected Works of C. G. Jung, No. 16 : The Practice of Psychotherapy Carl Gustav Jung, et al / Hardcover / Published 1966 The Collected Works of C. G. Jung, No. 18 : The Symbolic Life Carl Gustav Jung, William McGuire (Editor) / Hardcover / Published 1977 The Collected Works of C. G. Jung, No. 20 : General Index Carl Gustav, Jung, et al / Hardcover / Published 1979 General Bibliography of C.G. Jung's Writings (Bollingen Series, 20) Lisa Ress, et al / Hardcover / Published 1992 The Practice of Psychotherapy : Essays on the Psychology of the Transference and Other Subjects (Bollingen Series Xx, Vol 16) R.F.C. Hull(Translator), Carl Gustav Jung / Paperback / Published 1985

04-02-2003, 08:35 PM	#33
Calzaer Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ohio Posts: 2,762	Kally: Since it's no big mystery... why, exactly, do we dream? And why is it that people who never fall into REM sleep suffer from sleep deprivation symptoms?

04-02-2003, 10:32 PM	#34
MadKally Banned Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: LALA Land in California Posts: 433	Freudian Slip: Do Dreams Still Have a Role in Psychiatry? By Neil Osterweil - Reviewed By Dr. Jacqueline Brooks March 12, 2001 [quote] -- Sigmund Freud called dreams the "royal road to the unconscious," but in many circles his ideas are as fashionable today as high-button shoes, corsets, and the turkey trot. Scratch a psychiatrist today, and you'll more likely find under the surface someone who believes dreams are not a "royal road" but a blind alley filled with the randomly discarded trash of a day's experience. HUGE POST DELETED BECAUSE MY BRAIN IS DISABLED! I'm so tired I don't know if I answered a question that pertained to anything. Maybe you know and are getting ready to tell us? http://www.webmd.com I wrote a long rambling post but when I read it again just now, It didn't make any sense to me.

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