HelenM

I think it's inappropriate to call someone a 'liar' - that's why. I would say that's essentially what Christians do when they say to someone who claims to have been a Christian and isn't any more "you never were a Christian".

My last pastor would freely admit he knows people who were devoted believers in college who now say they know longer believe. He doesn't assert that they never believed. He knows that they did. I think many people know Charles Templeton was a believer at one time and then went onto write a number of books objecting to Christianity. Quoting from his son's site: [early in his life] "many predicted it would be him, not Graham who would become the biggest evangelical preacher in history".

1 Peter 3:15 says to give a reason for the hope we have with gentleness and respect. I don't consider calling someone a liar either gentle or respectful.

Helen

GeoTheo

Bree, this is a forum where people discuss religion in case you haven't noticed. It is entirely appropriate to respond to people who are participating in this threrad and even ask them questions.

Badfish

Helen? Are you a theist??

GeoTheo

I would agree with your interpretation of that verse as relates to how you should share your own faith. I also agree that it is rude to call people a liar if they aren't being dishonest. But the Bible itself seems to call the integrity of Atheism into question.
Romans 1:20 "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."
Also Psalm 14:1
The fool [ 14:1 The Hebrew words rendered [ fool ] in Psalms denote one who is morally deficient. ] says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good"

Also, I am talking about former Christians that later proffess atheism and claim they are doing so on an evaluation of the evidence and not rebellion against God. It is my contention that they still believe, not that they never believed to begin with.
I don't see any biblical support for some one experiencing enlightenment and then plunging back into darkness and ignorance. The Bible rather seems to paint the picture of rebellion.
Seriously, must you believe everything everybody tells you in order to not be rude? There is self deception involved in unbelief, even if you can't bring yourself to admit all atheists may not always tell the truth. It would seem to me that if an atheist says something about there personal experience that is in DIRECT conflict with the Bible, surely It would be wiser to question the atheist and not the Bible. Is it not your view that the Bible is authoritative on these subjects such as salvation? Basically, you seem to be putting another person's version of their experience over the Biblical revelation.

Badfish

I'll have to agree, I thought this was one of the freedoms of being a member on IIDB, given that the discussion is in the appropriate forum.

seebs

If someone's direct experience contradicts my interpretation of the Bible, I'll distrust my interpretation first. Direct experience is close to unimpeachable.

Badfish

You forgot to say "demonstratable" direct experience.

seebs

Not really. Most direct experience isn't demonstrable (ever try to *PROVE* that something looks red to you?), so I tend to assume that people in debates are acting in good faith until I have specific reasons to believe otherwise.

GeoTheo

I don't follow you. Just because somthing is difficult to debate against( as are arguments from experience) doesn't make them unimpeachable. It just makes them subjective.
People can interpret the Bible wrong, I agree, but also keep in mind that people also interpret their experiences based on their world view and pre-suppositions. If a person decides they plan to live their life with the belief that there is no God, than that is the lense through wich they interpret their experience. What they earlier believed to be the conviction of the HS, they now take to be merely guilt and or psychological baggage from being indoctrinated. They also may be participating in self deception.

HelenM

GeoTheo I just got back from 4 hours at church, because I was playing in the orchestra for both Good Friday services at my church - it was fun but I'm too tired to write much now.

Badfish does that answer your question? If not then feel free to read my website or my CF profile (when CF is back online after the maintenance/upgrade) for further information

Helen