keyser_soze

Do you really have to ask?

Pat Kelly

No Helen you are incorrect to say I am ignoring one topic because I am talking about another. I suspect we share many of the same understandings when it comes to the trauma some children suffer at the hands of authority figures who abuse them sexually. But what can I add to the discussion of that topic you have not already seen on CNN?

I propose to you that an even bigger story that no one is allowed to hear about is all the children who have enjoyed a sexual encounter with an adult. These are the stories we never read about not because they do not exist in reality but because it is socially unacceptable to propose that any sex experienced between an adult and a child must be anything but psychologically devastating for the child. We are not getting a fair shake on both sides of this issue and anyone who would say we are is either blind or a liar.

If you want to hash around more in the negative side of sex be my guest. For me, I am tired on continually hearing only one side of the story and I think it is high time people started standing up and saying the exclusive negative line of sex does not ring true with their own personal experiences. By condemning sex we are condemning ourselves even though we think we are somehow safe because we are no longer children. Anyway I think you understand where I am coming from.
Honesty and the truth. Do you not believe such things are worth pursuing even if they get you in hot water with the establishment?

HelenM

I suspect we are although I'm not aware that I'm blind or a liar

I definitely agree something can be worth pursuing IF it's honesty and the truth and IF it can effect change to do so - even when it might get us 'in hot water with the establishment' to do so.

So...there is a principle we agree on, in general. But when it comes to specifics we are in definite disagreement.

Helen

Pat Kelly

Ok Helen, spend all the time you like looking but tell me when you ever heard a story on the news were a kid came forward and said they were in a sexual relationship with an adult they enjoyed and found highly rewarding. Tell me the last time you heard 60-minutes do an in-depth report on the positive side of adult/child sexual encounters. Who was the last reporter for the LA Times you know of who did a positive exposé that explored the joys of sex from the perspective of a 10 year old?

I doubt you have ever heard such stories because any reporter who dared do such a story would be immediately looking for a job. I doubt you have ever heard such stories because any kid that dared come forward with a statement they enjoyed sex with adults would be hauled off to therapy in handcuffs if necessary with their adult partner landed in jail for an extended prison term. Sounds like quite the inducement to keep such stories quiet and out of the news. Is it your position there is absolutely no truth to any supposition there must be some kids who actually seek out sex with adults. I will tell you when I was 13 I was horny as hell and would have gladly allowed some older man or woman to service me sexually. Probably several times a week if I had know such a person. And the last thing I would have wanted to do would have been to bring the matter to the attention of the police.

Did you know that some estimates put the number of children who are thought to have engaged in sex with an adult before the age of 14 as high as 60%? Where are all these millions upon millions of children and why have we heard virtually nothing from all but a very few. Could it be that these children enjoy their sexuality just as much as we adults and the last thing they want to do is put an end to something they experience as a good thing. We certainly hear from all the sensational abuse cases involving sex and we hear so much of them they have been elevated to regular slots on the Larry King show. What about the other side of the story?

Is it rational to assume that most of these children have conspired in the web of secrecy against the social hysteria that would all but crucify them? We are not talking about anything hard to understand here and the numbers tell the story. Why are so many allegedly abused children unwilling to come forward to either stop the abuse or seek some form of restitution after the fact. I am not talking about the trickle here and there of the odd priest or school teacher or boy scout master. We are talking tens of millions here. Tens of millions of children have enough sense to keep quiet about something even against the immense pressure that insists such things are wrong and bad for the child. The fact these children remain silent and beyond the reach of local law enforcement speaks volumes.

The kids are out there. Out there by the millions. The adults are out their as well along with all the taboo sex that escapes your awareness. All you can see is the single side of the story you get from the media who would never dare approach you with anything but what you expect to hear. Look at the response I get for challenging current social views on what is supposed to be a freethinking bulleting board. Could you imagine what would happen to ABC, NBC or CBS?

Helen my statement stands. We are not getting a fair shake on both sides of this issue and anyone who would say we are is either blind or a liar. I do not believe you are a liar but I also did not say you would necessarily be aware of your blindness.

I am heartened to see we agree on at least one point. And likely the most important point any two people could ever agree upon. Now if I could just convince you all of this has absolutely nothing to do with my wanting to get into some child’s pants. I love the people I share this planet with and it hurts me deeply to see us inflict so much pain upon one another because we are just too stupid to know any better.

HelenM

The photos I briefly saw on your site were not of 13 year olds - they were of younger children.

But...you are trying to open the door for it to be ok for others to do so, even if you don't personally want to.

I think it's highly likely that everyone on this thread would like to see people hurting one another less.

But - as I'm sure you're well aware - we disagree on the definition of what 'hurts' a child. I haven't read this whole thread; last time I looked not one person was agreeing with you. Why don't you bring some folks along who share your views - if people with good childhood sexual experiences are so prevalent why aren't they posting here, joining in this thread and agreeing with you? Where are they?

Helen

Pat Kelly

There are many pictures on my site and I have tried to equally cover all age groups. I fail to see the relevance you seem to refer it to. I also related that I had a sexual encounter with a guy roughly 18 when I was 5. I still do not see what this has to do with anything.
No no no! You have it all wrong. The door is already wide open as it always has been and no amount of social stigma is ever going to force it closed. One of my most basis understandings is that we should not attempt to change things we have no real power to change especially where there is no proof the good that might come from such change will actually exceed the bad. We are meddling in things we are just beginning to understand and any attempt to restrict the natural flow of human sexuality is doomed to fail before it even starts.

Well my website just exceeded it bandwidth limit and I am in no mood to drum up more viewers. It costs me money to have you visit my site and LR has always run in the red. Next month if you are so disposed go into the bulletin board on my site and there you will find many people relating what they experienced as positive adult/child sex. I was surprised so many would be willing to come out and discuss it in public but there appears to be some cracks forming in the walls that have kept such things secret.

As for inviting others to join me here on this board I would not expect most to accept a position where they debated something in the minority. Not only that the people I know well enough to call personal friends who I might envite to such an affair are all heterosexuals and would likely be very supportive of anti-pedophile views. This does not mean I have not discussed my views with them. They are just a bit perplexed by where I come up with these ideas especially when we wind up chatting about such things over a couple of beers in a strip joint.

yguy

Here's one for starters:

The current president of the American Psychological Association, Martin Seligman, wrote of his positive experiences at age 9 in the 1950s with a newspaper man he met each day on the way to school. The contact that occurred between them, as Seligman noted, would today be labeled child sexual abuse.
But, for him, it was not abuse. This was the first adult who took him seriously, who was willing to discuss the issues of the world with him (gotten from the newspapers he was selling). Seligman reflected that, had authorities intervened and questioned him about the man, had his parents overreacted, had they forced him to see a therapist who insisted to him that he was a victim, then the whole experience would have become quite negative, when in fact it remains positive for him to this day.

http://www.ilja-schmelzer.de/Rind/Rind1998.html

keyser_soze

Dealing with the seamy side of humanity in social work ate me up from the inside out. I never saw these "happily molested children", all I saw were kids scared, ashamed, hurt, or destructive as hell. I saw perverts by the dozens, rapists, be they forcible or coercive, and all they amounted to were little men, with no spine and no morals. No self control, crying "poor me" that they had been caught and what it would do to their families. Not "poor jessica"(a 7 year old girl that will never have children, even if she does want to have a sexual relationship one day, which looked doubtful working with her on a daily basis), no sympathy for their victims. I don't recall a happy child in the bunch, wading through files with stories that turned your stomach and made you wish you could close your eyes and never open them again. Where ARE the happy molested children?

I apologized to the mod for getting verbally violent before in this thread, but the apology was for my breach of politesse. Not for the disdain and hate I feel for perverts who rape women and children. I would gladly remove them from the world, at the cost of my own life if necessary, so long as I eliminated them all...a decent trade if you ask me. The attempt to rationally free them of guilt sickens me, and apparently everyone else as well. Perhaps you might want to look into WHY you feel something that is counter to everything that it means to love family, friends, and children. Sure you enjoyed sex at 10 or whatever, but ARE YOU THE STANDARD? Absofreakinlutely NOT! I dealt with your kind, we put them in jail. Always trying to justify or rationalize their inability to control("No, your honor, I was merely washing her bottom when her dad came in, I had just peed and hadn't zipped up...no your honor, I don't think what I did was wrong, after all she giggled when I pulled off her panties...sure your honor, I think a 5 year old girl knows what she wants, the little slut...") their own thoughts and behaviour.

Pat Kelly

keyser_soze - What does MSW mean and what agency did you work for. Just curious.

keyser_soze

Typically Masters in Social Work...but I'm sure you mean something else. And I practiced for the Department of Human Services(DSS). I worked investigation and foster care/adoption. Prior to that I did discharge planning for terminal/elderly patients in the baptist health system, and prior to that I was in the army. I put myself through college, was in foster care myself, and am currently raising two children(who are terribly well adjusted as yet) with my wife, an all around loving person(even if she is a deluded baptist).

Now that we have all of my secret life out, why do you want to know? If you do a search, you can even find my name and address which was posted sometime this year in another thread...I've never cared to be anonymous.

Edited to include that I've also worked changing oil, topping trees, cutting yards, waxed floors, painted houses, poured concrete...can't think of any more(gotta pay for college some way don't you). In case your wondering, I started working after school at age 13, before that I did yard work(mowing and raking).