Jamie_L

While that sounds good on the surface, is it really true?

What is love? It's a set of behaviors and a set of desires.

What would you value more, someone who loved you of their own free will, but was prone to verbally and physically abuse you, or someone who was programmed to love you perfectly, and did so? Is it really the "free choice" of love that we value, or is it the actual loving interactions themselves?

But, I suppose you could say the "love" God wants, by definition, is love freely given.

But again, that brings me back to "why?" Can't God have a relationship with morally pure people? Can't he make people who only want to do good, and then have a relationship with them? Why does he have to make them want to do evil in order to have a relationship with them?

Jamie

orac

People like you are wonderful.

If I put a loaded gun to your head, and told you to give me all your money, afterwards you would go to court and argue that you had a free choice as to what to do, and that I did not coerce you in any way.

God uses hell as his loaded gun, but you're arguing that threatening us with hell if we don't freely choose to love him is perfectly moral.

Yes, I know the 'we choose to go to hell' story, but those people are forgetting that God selected the options we have to choose from. It's equally valid to say that you're choosing of your own free will to be shot in the head by a mugger, and that it's entirely your own fault. After all, if the mugger gives you choices, he didn't make you do anything at all.

"I'll fire this gun in 20 seconds. I will only aim it away from you if you give me all your money. It's your choice whether or not you get shot, because I've told you how to avoid it."

Would you accept that as a perfectly legal way for someone to extract money from you?

(God is slightly different in that we can't actually see him - apparantly he needs to hide any evidence of the need to make a choice, because if we actually knew the available options then we couldn't make a choice. Fortunately we have people who Know The Truth to tell us, even though hearing the truth from the source would be a problem. Can anyone explain how this is logical?)

The funny thing is that I actually suspect you wouldn't consider being mugged to be a good thing, and would not defend a mugger's use of violence to coerce a person into handing over a little cash.

crownboy

You touch on some excellent points, orac.

The whole "free will" thing would make a lot more sense if the rewards we were given for the action of "accepting god's love"/ "not accepting god's love" were equal. That is, we should have "eternal bliss" regardless of our choice. This would truly make the decision to "love god" a free and uncoherced choice, as our minds will be focused purely on whether to worship god or not based purely on God's character, and not have to worry about our "immortal soul" at the same time. As you said, the two choices as Christains present them are totally unequal and one sided, and makes the "free will" argument a total farce.

Plus it's not like we have absolute free will anyway; I can't walk on water though I desire to do so .

fatherphil

i've tried to use the raising of my kids as a way to better understand God's grand scheme and appreciate the value in it. it does not always work out perfectly but i find it helps.

The Naked Mage

Well-spoken, Master Orac!

7thangel

There is a fallacy in your statements. If you agree that there is no free will, then nobody is "willing" to be who they are, they are just plainly being themselves. In the absence of free will, everything is actually conclusive and pointing towards a difinite fate. So, in this sense, why should God be expecting a change? That is, I believe, a complete nonsense. The issue should be directed to what would rather be the fate of this world, not of our delusions of will.

In the gospel, the salvation of Christ through the cross, is a very ideal way of showing that salvation is not worked by men, but rather a gift of God. And in many ocassions in the Bible, the teaching of salvation through predestination is very evident. In fact, the chosen were chosen even before the world was created, eliminating the concept of the importance of free will. So God is not really expecting anything to be changed, rather all thing will happen as God had said according to His Word.

Now, if man is actually powerless because man does not actually have free will, then there is a confidence in me that He can make this a better world within His power. That He can make a kingdom of people having all of good nature.

The gospel denies man of free will. Of course, it depends on how you understand the gospel. But in any case, the more you dig of free will, it will rather be helpful in understanding God.

dublczek

What does God want? He wants the opportunity to be me. He gave me free will so I could decide for myself if I like that or not. I'm still deciding and will PM Him eventually.

A man spent 50 years of his life learning to walk on water. Upon showing others what he could do, someone noted, "You could have taken a boat."

7thangel

God does not want anything. He just is doing things according to His purpose, just being the God as He is.

dublczek

Okay.

Philosoft

I always thought God was some kind of disembodied mind who creates by acts of will. How does a being who does not want anything create by will?