Born Free

FPY I'd like to recommend a book to you. It's called "Those Were The Days" the holocaust as seen by the perpetrators and bystanders. It was written by three German journalists Ernest Klee, Willi Dressen and Volker Reiss. I have had this book twice but unfortunately on each occaison it has been borrowed and not returned. I will get it again and soon because I wish to refresh my memory.

If you won't take survivor accounts as being true and honest, then perhaps you will believe the accounts of those who committed the crimes. It dispels the myth that they were following orders under pain of death or discipline. Not once was any soldier or camp guard disciplined if they refused to murder innocents.

Now to be fair there were a small number of SS men who abhorred what was being done and did all they could to help and survivors frequently testified to this in court, in effect saving their lives. That is not covered in this book but others.

Read books not written by survivors instead read those books that are written by people not affected, neither jews nor gypsys or any other group, having lost no one in the death camps or not even knowing anyone remotely close to them. These people do their own research and are not influenced by anyone.

If you won't take it from the horses mouth, then read from others but they will all tell you the same thing.

Born Free

Incidentally there was an uprising at Sobibor in which 300 prisoners escaped and in the process killed 11 SS men. This uprising was instigated by Russian Jewish prisoners of war the leader was called Lt. Aleksandr (Sasha) Pechersky.

Most of the escapees were hunted and killed but 50 of them survived. The result being the Nazi's closed Sobibor down a small victory but a good one.

Vorkosigan

Thanks, alli. As I recall, Himmler was actually going to transform it into an ordinary concentration camp anyway, but after the revolt decided to close up shop.

Back to PD. It looks like this is going fine, and I overreacted. Apologies to one and all.

Vorkosigan

The SwampThing

This thread is so confuse! Most names mentioned here are unknown to me. I supose they are part of the US reality, still struglling with the long clutches of racism...

Although i have no doubt the Holocoust DID infact happen, i know the numbers were a bit exagerated. Of course, even if only half the numbers were true, it would still classify as a major holocoust!
What i don´t understand, is the downplaying and downgrading of a much bigger holocoust, that took place just a few hundred miles from the german death camps. There were something like 20 million dead in Russia! Why weren´t these also considered a true holocoust? Why was it, that only the jewish killings were viewed as "holocoustical", and not the russian ones??

The truth of the numbers is, that in Russia, there were killed 5 times more people than the gran total of jewish, gipsy and other minorities...
They were killed with just the same savagery that the jews were, or even more! And yet the western societies have chosen to smutter it down, erased from history books and colective memory.
Was it because the russians turned out to be on the wrong side of the iron curtain? Weren´t they entitled to the same degree of world grief?

Don´t get me wrong. It is not my intent to downplay the jewish holocoust, and shurelly i won´t never doubt it happened. But the simple fact that western civilizations chose to ignore what happened in Russia, fills me with disgust and anger.

As for the jews themselfs, as a people, i recognize their right to seek that it never happens again. But we cannot, never, allow them to equally pursue and exterminate an entire people, under the banner of the once victimized.
That they once were persecuted and killed, doesn´t give them the right to do the same onto others, like it has been done in Palestine.

This world is filled with sad injustices, and huge mistakes. Instead of learning with history, we as a race, tend to do the exact opposite. We continue to pursue the war path, no matter what...
What will it take for the human race to throw away the idea of race and border? Another holocoust? How many have to die, yet again?
Untill the moment when we put politics and petty quarrels behind, this world will continue to suffer at the hands of hatefull people, sitting in high places.
Until that moment, men like Hitler, Pinochet, Pol Pot, Sharon and George W. Bush, will continue to dictate the course of our lives, based only on their personnal prejudices and misconceptions.

A Holocoust, you say? Well, to answer the initial thread, not only it happened for real, it is still happening! Every day, every hour, every minute of our pathetic lives!
How can anyone have doubts? The flags change, the gas chambers are diferent, but the end result is the same. Wether in Germany, Russia, Israel, or the US of A. It is always the same...
:banghead:

matthias j.

You can't call the slaughters by Stalin a holocaust, because the word itself reffers to the killing of Jewish people. Stalins camps were politically inspired not racially.

-FPY-

What about me? Shouldn't I get angry when confronted by idle and repetitive rhetoric, inflated "historical" facts and figures, and politically motivated "historical" accounts? It's funny that I am called an anti-Semite. I am an anti-Semite for talking about - not even denying - the holocaust. Excellent!

I admire the Jews greatly - but that does not give them a free reign over the history of the holocaust. Just because some Jewish people lost some relatives does not prove anything.

The holocaust: let's hear both sides

What is 'holocaust denial'?

Elie Wiesel

And, please, no op-eds on the history of the IHR.

JamesKrieger

FPY, have you read Michael Shermer's book "Why People Believe Weird Things"? If you haven't, I suggest that you do. There is a chapter in the book that is relevant to this discussion.

matthias j.

Maybe we could call you anti-semite because you consider Francis Parker Yockey your hero? I don't know much about him, but Google thaught very little positive things about him, most sources referred to him as neo-fascist and anti-semite. You have to admit it's rather suspicious when someone with a nick like yours contests -- maybe rightfully -- the truth of the holocaust?

JamesKrieger

So you're saying that millions of Jews, including small children, deserved to die?

Evangelion

• 120...Oops...66 Questions & Answers About the Holocaust. (A systematic refutation of IHR propaganda.)
  
• Deceit & Misrepresentation - The Techniques of Holocaust Denial.
  
• The Trial of Adolf Eichmann.
  
• Are "Revisionists" Holocaust-deniers?
  
• The Dentist of Auschwitz.

All taken from the indomitable Nizkor Project.