Buddrow_Wilson

I'm ready for this thread to die.

Is there a way to un-subscribe to it?

Pat Kelly

I tend to place a very high value on life and would have to ask how many instances of adult/child sex would you be willing to equate to a single life even if a certain percentage of the adult/child sex turned out to be rape?

I am also not so sure I totally accept your assumption there would be a big jump in the instances of adult child sex in response to decriminalizing adult/child sex. Again, there is a big difference between rape and sex and I would certainly not advocate the removal of any laws related to assault and force. Therefore, it would still be illegal to force someone into sex in particular children who are most defenseless against such things.

Your use of the word “victims” also seems to rely upon the idea all sex experienced between adults and children is inherently bad for the child, which continues to be a matter of substantial debate within the professional community. Even within our little debate here no one has been able to come up with a single concrete claim demonstrating sex in itself is psychologically damaging to children even when their sex partner is an adult.

Your premise may also be assuming far more people are attracted to children than actually are. Even some who think they are attracted to children within exclusively imaginary fantasies would likely find those fantasies do not hold up well in reality simply by removing the “forbidden fruit” image. Reality says adults and children do not make very good sex partners just as it says most adults are not sexually aroused by the idea of forcing a weaker partner into sex. I suspect the fears in this area have been highly overrated.

I apologize for the length of this but your original question was: “Honestly, how is it detrimental to society for a person to suppress their sexual urges towards children??” The above relates to how it is detrimental to society which includes its youngest members better know as children.
True. It seems to be a matter of priorities and I find few things more disconcerting than those who run around shouting “I am a savior of children!” to fulfill some personal need to see themselves that way while at the same time intentionally choosing to ignore the far more serious problems killing millions upon millions of children. And these are not problems that could not easily be solved if we only had the public will to do so. I have personally seen starving children and looked into the glazed eyes of a dead child. My website is a challenge to the social hypocrisy that would permit and in some cases even encourage such things.
Well answering this question is like trying to jump on a moving train. You cannot change social attitudes towards sex overnight even if the new attitudes more closely mirror human reality. There are very real potential negative consequences for any child who might engage in sex with an adult today directly and exclusively attributable to the social response. Therefore in my view I would strongly recommend against any parent engaging in sex with a child. Having said that I would also strongly recommend that the proper way to deal with such things is certainly not to ring the death toll for the family where it occurred. Again, there is a big difference here between rape and sex and I am talking about sex here.

In my view, all laws pertaining to sex including those restricting sex based upon age should be wiped off the books. If this were to come to pass, it seems supportive family counseling would be in order to assure no harm is being done to anyone arising from incest and that everyone involved is involved of their own desire. I would also see such counseling as dealing with issues of current social responses to such behavior with a goal of everyone better understanding why some people have learned to see sexual interactions between family members in such a negative light.

In time, social views would change and become more accepting, allowing sex to settle down into a more natural and less restricted behavior. The result would be a sexually freer society able to function more in tune with the inner realities that make us human.
We live in a culture where violence has come to be accepted and even seen in a positive light. The assault you speak of is not so much about sex as it is about a willingness of one person to inflict violence upon another. All violent people need to removed from society regardless of age if their violence is out of control and poses a tangible threat to others. These people need to be re-sensitized to the true ramifications of violence and prison should be a place where violent people go in one door and only non-violent people come out the other. In my opinion these doors should only swing one way and if a person is unable to give-up or recover from a propensity towards violence they should live out their lives locked away from the rest of society. Not punished but locked away.
Again, there is the supposition that some harm was done through their behavior and I challenge anyone to demonstrate this was the case. The only thing that is damaged by such natural behavior are the social norms that see such behavior as wrong. Clearly it is not the behavior that is wrong but the social norms that need to be thrown back into the volcano with all the other irrational garbage we carry from our past.
Whether we view such things as acceptable or not, the reality is such things have always been part of human sexuality no matter if we happen to agree with them today or not. Again, this logically should boil down to an issue of harm. If we are unable to come up with tangible harms that can be directly tied into the sex itself and not the social view that condemn such things then what we should be trying to fix is the broken social views and not the sex.
I have witnessed a very clear shift in the amount of attention paid to the sensationalized events involving childhood sexuality over the last 20, 25-years. There is nothing new in the fact clergy have for a long time availed themselves to children in response to restrictions upon their sexuality. But what you would have read about on page 5 of the newspaper is now the headline overtaking stories that thousands are being slaughtered in some tribal war in Africa. The African story is now the one on page 5 by the way even though hundreds of women and children are being beheaded. Perhaps this is because they have black skin but if newspapers and TV newscasts want to see an immediate increase in advertising revenues all they need do is a story involving a child and sex. Advertising revenues have come to have more of an affect upon what we see in the news than any other element. This is the change I have seen that has slowly moved social opinion regarding childhood sexuality to the point of social hysteria.
Believe it or not, it is the protectors of children you are referring to who are having all the sex with children in the first place. By far, most sex between adults and children occurs in the home and among close family members. The only thing being protected is the big secret. It’s time we faced up to the secret and started focusing more on our real problems.

Try not to forget we really do not have much data to go on when it comes to assessing how human children would respond in a society that did not prohibit them from engaging in sex or the adults for that manner. History shows several such societies but it is difficult to get much resolution out of the data. They do nonetheless offer at least some insight into what it might be like to live in a sexually tolerant society. I highly suspect within such a society the overwhelming incidents of adult/child sex would consist mostly of children attempted to nitiate sex with an adult and being told to get lost not unlike what we see in animals similar to ourselves. The few adults who did not might become very popular around certain circles of children but they too would likely tire of such things and move on to greener pastures. I am referring to both the children and the adults sexually attracted to children.

Buddrow_Wilson

I'm too tired to reply to all your points, but I will make this distinction:

I wasn't assuming that there was harm done. Only that considering the ages difference, it seems appropriate to have some counseling in order to ascertain if there is anything to worry about and to make sure the 9 year old understands about things such as force and coercion. By "counseling" I don't mean an hysterical social worker.

Pat Kelly

Agreed. Have a good evening and allow me to say it is a bit refreshing to discuss this issue with someone on an intellectual instead of emotional level.

EarthGirl

I agree w/you. I think that sex between ADULTS is fine, in any way. Of course, all parties must be willing particiants.

Children on the other hand, well, there is something deep within me that feels violent at the thought. I suppose that this feeling is no different from the protective feelings that I have towards my children such as ensuring that they don't run out into the street to get hit by a car or stick their fingers in an electric socket and get electrocuted.

I suppose that one might make an argument which implies that different people become ready for sex at differnet ages. But... as we all know, children are still growing, learning and are on their way to becoming mature physically as well as mentally. Has this factor been mentioned?

Childhood is the time for experementation w/sex. Most, if not all boys masterbate. I don't know what the statistics on girls is but my guess would be that they do as well. This is a preparation for adulthood. This in no way means that they are ready for sexual experiences w/ADULT partners.

Any one who had had meaningful sex knows that w/it comes great emotional experiences as well. To deny this indicates to me that Pat and whoever else clumps humans w/all other animals, forgets that part of being human means that we have choices, are aware of ourselves.

In the little that I have read of Pat's arguments, it seems that he/she believes that society has forced great guidelines on what is acceptable and was is not, w/regards to sex. While this is true up to a point, there is also the factor that many parents are also hotwired to protect their children, not only from predators but from themselvses.

We must have a society. We must have laws. We must have some sort of order. It is what separates us from all other species. Granted, many of societies "laws" if you will, leave much to be desired. But I am hopeful that we are/will evolve to a much higher awareness and maturity.

Is Pat trying to justify his/her own sexual desires for children? In my own honest opinion, there is absolutely no justification for an adult to touch a child in any kind of a sexual way. It is WRONG!

lunachick

This:
is so chilling, I cannot speak.

Bad Kitty

This argument is both RIDICULOUS and a GIANT rationalization for child molestation. Maybe we should remove the stigma and legal penalties associated with rape of adult women too, so that no rapist will be tempted to kill a woman to cover up his crimes. Maybe we should remove the legal penalties for ALL activities that MIGHT result in murder to cover them up! Yeah that's the ticket.

Try this:

In a society that restricts torture with severe penalties for anyone caught in such activities, an individual who succumbs to his or her desire to inflict pain and engages in torture-related activities is induced by the severe penalties themselves to remove the evidence by killing the victim. I am 100% certain that some if not many victims of torture would still be alive today were it not for the enormous social and legal consequences of torture. Personally I would rather see a live victim dealing with the emotional trauma of torture than a family grieving at a funeral. I am certain those families share this view.

Pat Kelly, your whole argument for adult/child sex is based on one massive rationalization, in which you have a huge vested interest. Part of you is unwilling to accept that not every urge that human beings have is GOOD and RIGHT. Just because something manifests itself in the human brain doesn't make it morally acceptable. Instead of believing that what you feel is aberrant and wrong, you'd rather believe that society "just doesn't understand" and that the feelings you have are natural and therefore RIGHT.

They aren't. No matter how you twist and turn, they will never be right.

Regards,

Michelle

Pat Kelly

Here's an article someone referred me to from USA Today. I found it about as neutral as any article could be today coming from a major publication on the issue of adult/child sex.

Enjoy!


USA Today - Experts debate impact, gray areas of adult-child sex

Pat Kelly

Michelle - Actually there is a logic fault in the above that I failed to catch earlier that is corrected when the word "rape" is replaced by the word "sex" in the last sentence. The problem I found with my own logic(I can already hear this echoing.) is that you could claim any crime that carried a stiff penalty might also induce criminals to kill in order to remove evidence and lessen the chance of being caught. Though it would be true if we legalized murder there might be some corresponding drop in the number of witnesses murdered who normally would have been killed, that drop would not seem equal to the rise in murder due to the removed deterrent.

However, the big difference between the murder scenario and the adult/child sex scenario I originally proposed is that the issues of harm resulting from adult/child sex is not so clearly established and it is even possible in many cases the harm is nil. We have no doubt about the negative affects of being murdered but the negative affects of adult/child sex (Note I have changed this from the word rape.) are not nearly as clear though many have erroneously assumed differently.

I must admit I am a bit puzzled over how so many of us appear to have already reached very immobile conclusions on the issue of adult/child sex while the experts are still debating the issue. How does one account for continued and unresolved expert’s debate from a layman’s position that claims to already have the answers?

By the way. What is this huge vested interest you are referring to? Generally, if I am hugely invested in something I prefer to be aware of it myself first before having it brought to my attention by someone else. I wish I had the perceptive powers apparently shared by some here that enable them to know more about myself than I do. Anyone got the results of tomorrow’s PowerBall lottery?

Koyaanisqatsi

So now you're trying to justify the decriminalization of adult/child rape by presenting us with the choice of: raped child who lives as opposed to murdered child after the rape to conceal the evidence?

You have a remarkable propensity to shift focus completely off of any culpability on behalf of the adult in any of this, I must say.

Save the children by championing the adult's right to use children for the adult's sexual gratification, because that will result in less murders of the victims.

F*cking brilliant.



It's all the child's fault for being sexual and society's fault for not seeing how helpless a grown adult is against this sexuallity! The adult's are never to blame in your "philosophy."

Except in the case of adult/child rape, of course, where you freely acknowledge the serious detrimental effect, yet, strangely, you cannot provide a single scenario--despite repeated requests--in which consensual sex is possible between an adult and a child.

Not one single instance.

Why? Because it's not possible to do so. All instances in which an adult uses a child for the adult's sexual gratification are a form of rape, since the child is too emotionally immature to comprehend what is happening in order to say "no" at some point and/or because a child is too experiencially immature to comprehend what is happening in order to say "no" at some point.

You're the one who continues to challenge us to provide you with a scenario in which harm results from adult/child sex and we have all done so repeatedly, so since you are the one claiming that it is possible to have consensual adult/child sex, it is incumbent upon you to provide us with just one scenario in which it is possible to obtain such a thing.

You cannot (or will not); therefore, it does not exist in this discussion.

Until such time as you can provide a specific scenario in which consensual sex is fully obtainable in any adult/child scenario, there is no such thing, so, again, we'll wait.

Apparently, forever.

You keep claiming there is a "big difference between rape and sex" in regard to an adult using a child for the adult's sexual gratification, but refuse to provide just one example in which this "big difference" obtains.

Describe it for us. Detail a specific scenario of consensual adult/child sex that could not be classified in some manner as a form of rape.

I and others have demonstrated repeatedly that there is no such thing and can be no such thing, so kindly demonstrate that we are wrong and you are right.

Prove it. It's your claim; you provide the proof. Describe for us all a possible scenario in which an adult and a child can engage in fully informed, equally mature, consensual sex.

If you cannot, then your entire fallacy is revealed for the delusional fraud it is.

No, it is not, in spite of your constant, unsubstantiated claims to the contrary. The "professional community" is in full agreement with the law that it is not just inherently bad for the child, but demonstrably bad for the child, as personal testimonials in this thread alone prove; harms that have little to nothing to do with society's views on sex.

Again, if you can provide a single scenario which would support your claims, it would help.

We have provided many examples--both theoretical and concrete, personal testimonials--which demonstrate conclusively that we are right and you are wrong, so kindly provide your own scenario disproving any of this and in support of your claims.

Again, if you cannot, then your entire fallacy is revealed for the delusional fraud it so clearly is.

And here's where you reveal both your pathology and your deliberate intent to obfuscate your pathology. It's in the unwarranted qualifying phrase "sex in itself," as if we're all just talking about sex in a vacuum; about the general concept of sex and not about the specifics of an adult using a child for the adult's own sexual gratification and how that selfish action negatively impacts the child on both physical and psychological levels having little to nothing to do with society's view on sex.

Even in truly consensual, adult/adult sex, there is an emotional component involved with one or both of the partners engaging in the activity. Many a relationship has been ruined by this emotional factor, where one partner felt tricked into performing sexually, because the other partner said how much they love the other and how the act will be an expression of that love, when the reality was, the one simply was horny and wanted self-gratification.

How do you propose an immature child is able to cope with such emotions; emotions that grown adults can not always deal with?

You keep desperately trying to make this all about sex in a vacuum, but only the adult knows what the could possibly mean and even then it is a self-delusional lie more so than not, so you tell us.

Does the adult have no responsibility for their selfish actions, or is the adult simply trying to deliberately shatter the child's innocence and condition them to think that sex has no emotional component; that sex is just all about everybody getting their own rocks off no matter what the cost or damage to the other?

You keep trying to make a "big difference" between rape and sex in regard to children, so you tell us. What is "sex" to you?

What does having sex with a child mean to the child and what does sex with a child mean to the adult?

You want to intelligently explore this without emotion and in a logical fashion, then fine. You tell us, since you're the expert.

What does it mean to have sex with a child? Breakdown the specifics for all of us who are just too emotional and devoid of logic and too socially stigmatized to understand the glory and majesty of f*cking little children.

Teach us.

Yes, we're well aware of what you suspect and what you think and what you foresee. What we have no clue about is anything specific.

Teach us. Tell us how our fears are unwarranted by describing the glories and majesty of f*cking little children.

It must be abundantly obvious to you that we are not capable of understanding your position and you've waffled all over the place with just about every post, so get specific.

Detail for us what it is we are all missing and you have discovered by presenting us with a scenario in which we are all wrong and your position is right.

"Millions upon millions?"

Who is doing all of the killing? Child rapists, not people such as yourself who only advocate consensual sex and the glory and the majesty of f*cking little children, right?

I mean, let's call a spade a spade here, right? Child rapists/murderers are clearly sociopathic criminals having nothing to do with your advocacy, so why bring them up at all?

You have attempted (through assertion) to clearly delineat a difference between rape and sex, so kindly provide us with a scenario that we can ourselves learn from in this regard.

What is having sex with a child like if not a form of rape? You came here to post with the intention of enlightening, so why stop at generalities about sex "in itself?" We all have had sex, so we know what sex is.

What none of us have had is sex with a child, so kindly enlighten us through your own experience and detail how sex with a child is a "big difference" from raping a child.

I'll let that one stand on its own.

So, then, you are the one running around screaming "save the children."

So, go on. Save them. Enlighten us. Tell us what the "big difference" is between raping a child and having consensual sex with a child. How does that work?

How does an immature child engage in informed, equally mature, consensual sex with an adult?

I contend it is impossible, so prove me wrong and save the children.

"Human reality?" Like rape? Like murder? That kind of human reality?

And nothing else?

So, again, detail for us how a child "engages" in sex with an adult?

They wear slinky clothes, perhaps? They rub up against the adult? At what point does this child engage in sex with the adult, because as far as I can see, it is the adult who takes these cues and engages in sex with the child.

So, once again we are faced with powerless adults, who cannot control their own sexuality, yes?

But have no problem with the child engaging in sex with the helpless to stop themselves parent?

These are extremely powerful children you know who can so overwhelm adults like this so that it is the child who engages in sex and not the other way around.

My goodness!

Instead of saving the children, your website should be about saving the adults from all of these overpowering, sexually informed and mature children taking advantage of all those immature adults out there by engaging in sex with them, yes?

Yes, apparently so. Incredible, super powerful children running around engaging in sex with helpless adults, who have no other choice but to succumb to the will of the children!

It's all the children's fault! I see now. Of course. If those super human children out there would just stop raping all those adults out there, then we'd have a better future!

Those poor, poor adults; so powerless to stop the advances of a child that they just had no choice but to succumb to the child's will!

Oh, who will save the adults?

Are you crazy? That would mean adults who have been overpowered--raped, one might argue--from all of these super human children would be completely defenseless! With no recourse to their violations from these horrible children!

The adults are the victims here, clearly! Poor, poor, defenseless, helpless adults being forced to engage in sex by all those children out there.

I see! So we could somehow just magically make all immature children mature by removing the social stigma of children who rape adults.

Of course, it's so simple!

Children aren't the victims! The adults are. If it were up to the children, they'd want to sodomize their parents on a nightly basis! If it were up to children, they'd want to perform fellatio on adults first chance they could get!

After all, a five, six, seven year old child is just as mature and informed as all of us are, right? Just look at the way they all engage in sex with adults! Look at the way they hunt and prey upon all those powerless adults who just have no recourse whatsoever but to allow the child to have their way with them.

It's such a horrible blight on society. All that child/adult rape going on and the adults completely defenseless to stop any of it.

Well, yeah, of course, since everyone in a family is equally mature and informed and experienced with all of the complexities of human sexuality.

Good thing there aren't any hierarchical authority concerns and a seven year old child is equally mature and informed and experienced as their thirty year old father or mother is.

If it just weren't for all those damned social stigmas involved, the seven year old could finally overpower mom or dad and force them to engage in sex.

But isn't that the case right now? I mean with all those children engagin in sex with the helpless, defenseless adults out there?

Like sexual weakness when it comes to the will of the child! After all, why shouldn't we all just f*ck little children, right? They want it just as badly as we adults do, right? Look at the way they all engage in sex with adults, after all; adults too powerless to even stop them!

If only there were some sort of documented study in this field that correlates to adverse psychological harm of some kind. Especially considering all those poor, poor adults out there so overwhelmed by a child's innocent sexuality that they just can't help themselves from succumbing to the child's needs and desires.

But then, why shouldn't they? Really. Why shouldn't adults let themselves be so overpowered by all those immature child rapists...excuse me...immature child hedonists who engage in sex with adults in a totally consensual, fully informed, equally mature manner, where no harm is done due to society's inability to recognize the equality involved?

It's only natural to be overpowerd by a child's sexuality, after all. Adults have no responsibility, either to their children or to themselves for that matter, right?

Yes, it's clearly society's fault and the children's fault. The adults are the innnocent victims in all of this. They have no control over their sexuality and certainly no experience with sex to be able to understand the complexity involved in any of this.

Let's remove this from the domain of psychotherapists and rape counselors, who are just busy-bodies, really, trying to stop the natural course of events of a child rapist....sorry...of a child's overpowering sexuality that adults are defenseless against.

Don't focus on the adult or make the adult responsible for their actions, when it is clear that no such responsibility exists. Why should it? Why hold adults responsible for their actions, or lack of actions?

Are we just insane?

Like all those super human children out there; inflicting a form of violence akin to, say, rape by taking advantage of all those powerless, innocent adults who are incapable of preventing the child from engaging in sex with them?

Would that be an example of the violence of which you speak? The violence of engaging in sex with someone who is powerless to stop the sex being engaged upon them?

Then we'd best imprison all those children out there! Those damned, filthy children who so overpower the adults every time they engage in sex with them, right?

I mean, if taking advantage of another person's weakness in order to achieve some sort of selfish, personal gratification isn't a form of violence against that weaker person, then I don't know what is!

Fill the prisons with the hedonist children to prevent them from inflicting anymore violence upon the helpless, defenseless adults out there!

Won't somebody think of the adults!?

Funny how you keep challenging and we keep answering that challenge, only to have you keep challenging.

Yes, clearly. No psychological harms have ever been documented and it's all the fault of the children and society.

Adult's can't be to blame for any of this, since they are just poor, defenseless creatures, so incapable of restraint and responsibility for their actions that it must be society's fault.

What were any of us thinking? To hold an adult to a higher standard than a child? Insanity.

Yeah, just like rape and murder! Open the prisons immediately!

It's just society's fault (and, of course, the children's).

Harm against the adults, of course. To hell with those hedonist children and their vicious ways; preying as they do on all those defenseless adults out there.

Yes, clearly, it is not the sex itself to blame, because sex itself is a glorious, beautiful thing, with no complicated emotional states involved at all.

And since we have no documentation of any kind to support such a notion and nothing like personal testimonials to the harms inflicted by such a thing, then you're right!

Everyone should just go out right now and succumb to the children.

Who are we, as a society, to hold adults responsible for their inactions? They can't help it. A child is far too powerful to stop and an adult far too immature to understand all of the complexities involved in human sexuality.

Why, oh why won't somebody think of the adults!?

I know! What are all these parents and concerned adults thinking? We can't stop children from engagin in sex with us! It's impossible.

And why should we? It's not as if we adults get anything out of it! We're all the victims here; victims of overwhelming child sexuality; powerless to stop it on any level.

It is nature's rule that children rape adults, so why fight it anymore? We are the victims, not them.

Right, so let's all face the fact that children are raping their parents at an alarming rate and there is nothing we can do about it, so just forget its happening and focus on something else more important.

Right, all we have is a society that prohibits adults from engaging in sex with children and decades of case studies that support such a prohibition; indeed the cause of the prohibition to begin with.

Well, that and common sense that says a mature adult cannot possibly have consensual sex with an immature child, by the very nature of the adult/child maturity quotient, but to hell with all of that!

It is the adults who are really the victims here, right?

You mean a society that is tolerant of adults raping children? Oh, sorry, of adults "engaging in" sex with children?

I see, so it's the "forbidden fruit" thing again that causes adults to f*ck little children and if we just removed that stigma, then adult/sex would cease.

How about this as a solution.... Why don't we instead hold adults to a higher standard and expect them to understand that their actions are harmful to the children they rape....engage in sex with?

Because, your solution implies an equality between adult and child in regard to sexuality; an equality that isn't there and cannot ever be there until the child grows to maturity.

That is, after all, the very definition of "maturity."

But you're right about one thing. We certainly need to protect the adults until that time. From themselves, if need be. For clearly, they are the victims here.