K

Laurentius:

But why is the self anything other than the framework supplied by genetics and the sum of all past inputs applied to that framework?

Laurentius

Because the human genes include the program to develop in each individual the conscious identity that we call self. This self will be of course built within genetic frames and according to environmental inputs, but it is still a distictive reality.

AVE

K

But if the self is still just formed from previous external inputs to a genetic framework, then the internal input from the self is just stored inputs from earlier experiences and the initial wiring. The result doesn't involve any more free will any other complex system whose structure and output is altered by external events.

Murphy

It seems to me that Determinism makes a lot of sense at first glance using an intuitive understanding of the universe. Every action I take is a chemical reaction in my brain that was set in motion by all previous reactions and stimuli. However, the universe doesn't follow those rules. Quantum physics has demonstrated that effects can precede causes, that "real" particles can interact with "potential" particles, and that as far as we can tell, there is a purely random factor to the way the world works that makes room for free will. Now whether this is simply part of a much, much more complex deterministic machine or truly free will beyond the scope of simple cause and effect is yet to be determined, but quantum physics does shoot the idea that every action we take is the simple result of our genes and stimuli producing a specific and inevitable reaction out of the water.

K

Murphy:

Quantum mechanics doesn't shoot determinism out of the water. Would you say that a computer has free will? It's subject to the same quantum rules that we are. Quantum effects are only relevent at certain scales. I would agree that quantum uncertainty rules out determinism as far as the universe is concerned, but not for macroscopic machines such as ourselves.

But, even if quantum mechanics does affect our behavior on a macroscopic level, how could its pure non-causality possibly be tied to free-will? Introduction of quantum uncertainty would still mean that our actions were governed strictly by physics. It would just make them non-deterministic. That would give us the same amount of free will that an electron has when it's "deciding" what position and momentum to have - ie. none.

Murphy

K:

Of course I wouldn't agree that a computer has free will because of quantum mechanics, but I never said that quantum uncertainty and free will was an if-then relationship. I only said that it disproves Determinism which in my opinion is the best argument against free will.

As far as non-causality granting us free will, I don't think that's necessarily the case, at this point, from a purely physical point of view as best we can figure, you're right, we do only have the same amount of free will as that electron. I was merely trying to point out how advances in science are bringing physics and metaphysics closer together so that while we still have no scientific explanation for free will, we are at least getting closer.

K

Murphy:

I guess I'll rephrase the question. Do you believe that a computer (or even a single flip-flop) is deterministic? If so, would you agree that it's possible that we are also deterministic even though we, like the computer, are composed of parts that obey quantum mechanical laws?

Murphy

I would say that, like a flip-flop or a computer, humans tend to be deterministic, reacting to specific stimuli in specific ways, however there is the chance for something different to happen, just as there is a non-zero probability that your computer will start talking to you coherantly. I realise that this is a poor comparison, since free will or lack thereof is an everyday occurance and to my knowledge no computer has ever started speaking to its owner. I guess my position is that human behaviour does follow a cause and effect pattern, but it is possiblefor a person or any other animal for that matter to react in a way other than what would be expected from a deterministic viewpoint. Beyond that, it's really impossible to rule one way or the other on the subject of free will because being inside the system, we can't observe it fully or in an objective light.

Laurentius

K says: But if the self is still just formed from previous external inputs to a genetic framework, then the internal input from the self is just stored inputs from earlier experiences and the initial wiring. The result doesn't involve any more free will any other complex system whose structure and output is altered by external events.

Laurence replies: No. That's what the self all about. It has the function and ability to create its own inputs. The genetic material and the years of formation determine the performance parameters of the self. There is a moment of maturation but complete formation is never complete, although the process tends to slow down with age. When mature the self becomes an input generator itself, besides the environment.

Of course the characteristics of each self are determined by previous factors, but the self can adjust its parametres so that it can make the best choices to his advantage or to that of the species.

AVE

xeren

I agree, but that doesn't mean you have free will. Let's take an example:

Let's say somone has just reached that "maturation point" and begins their first "self input" by thinking to themselves, "I wish i were more confident". So they set out to learn how to be more confident.

The reason they thought that is because deterministic conditions brought them to the point of wanting to be more confident.

Anyone seeing where i am going with this? My point is that all of the "self inputs" that you begin to make are all determined by your early external influences. And later in life, when you make, let's say, your 1000th "self input" in an effort to change something about yourself, that "self input" is a result of a string of "self-inputs" which eventually lead back to that bunch of external inputs which you had no control over.

So no matter how mature you are and how many times you've changed yourself with self-inputs, you cannot gain free will, because the way in which you change yourself (add "self inputs") is based on those early external influences, which you had no control over.

[ October 01, 2002: Message edited by: xeren ]</p>