Goliath

Seraphim,

Good question! Unfortunately, rather that rigorously defining what a soul is, you continue to make vague, unsupported assertions.

Whoa! Hold on! So any sentient being is a soul? What are you talking about? Be rigorous and precise with your terminology, please.

...huh? Souls evolve? How can you prove this when you haven't even defined "soul," yet?

Unproven assertion that single-celled life forms are sentient.

What is a "dukkha?" More vague gobbledygook?

I don't think that intelligence is gained purely through experiencing sensations. I can pick up a hammer with my right hand and smash my left hand with the hammer as many times as I want, but doing so won't make me any more intelligent.

Unproven assertion that humanity is a single being and that--as a single being--humanity is sentient. Also, what do you mean by being sentient "in all sense?"

I dunno. What is a soul?

Vague, unproven assertions.

Unproven assertion.

Then let's see this proof.

....huh?

Unproven assertion that a soul (whatever that is) exists.

How do NDE's prove that souls (whatever they are) exist? Fill in every detail, please.

Unproven assertion.

Well, I'm extremely disappointed. I was expecting a proof. Instead, I receive a pile of unproven assertions regarding the existence of something that you didn't even bother to define.

Sincerely,

Goliath

Keith Russell

Greetings:

Soul is the entity which survives death?

Well, I survived the death of Elvis, so I must be Elvis' soul.

(As are everyone else over the age of 27.)

Keith.

Seraphim

"No-brain death is legal and medical death.
No one comes back from actual brain death.
I dispute anyone surviving after having received no oxygen to the brain for several hours."

My reply : The brain will shut off in about 7 mins if it is not supplied with oxygen (medical opinion), thus the following example to demonstrate that there was cases of NDE with brain-death senario.

<a href="http://www.near-death.com/experiences/experts4.html" target="_blank">http://www.near-death.com/experiences/experts4.html</a>
The girl's heart stopped for 19 minutes - twice the amount of time for the brain to experience brain death.

<a href="http://www.near-death.com/reynolds.html" target="_blank">http://www.near-death.com/reynolds.html</a>
Cases like this one where the doctors simulate a "flatliner" in order to perform risky surgery - such as brain surgery.

I tried to find other examples, but most of it got "I saw Jesus/God" kind of statements inside which is unsuitable for this discussion.


"Beleive me, I've tried this, and other tricks to try to convince myself of the soul's existance.
It hasn't worked.
it hasn't seemed to me that 'the electricity remains unchanged' at all.
When you have known a person all your life, known their subtleties of thought and feeling,then you know when the personality behind them is no longer the same-is, in effect, drainig away.
Where then does it go to?
Some cosmic storage-battery?
And when the person's body finally does die, what happens to this soul? Gathers itself up and trundles off to an afterlife?
It makes absolutley no sense at all to me, and this is a very minor case. "

my reply : I can understand that. Living in Asian region, I see plenty of those type of example myself. A person who is prior to death will start doing weird stuff like eating something he never tried before, try new activities he never even thought before etc and become more and more detached with other.

In Buddhism, attachment (a person to a family, society, friends, his job etc) is what defines him thus when he senses (his Mind senses it) that death is approaching, then he will start becoming detached to what helds him onto the world.

Seraphim

"Electricity is used to carry signals throughout the motherboard as well as provide energy for other functions....
In humans, the thing that sends signals throughout our brain are chemical messengers (neurotransmitters?) and the energy source for our brain is blood which carries oxygen and nutrients and gets rid of wastes... in a computer, the waste is heat - and fans are used to suck out that waste to stop the hardware getting damaged.
Are you sure that analogy was a good one for explaining what the mind is? "
By excreationist

My reply : I believe this is a proper analog simply because it is made by man in attempt to duplicate man. In all sense, computers and robots are here to show what we are made of.

In a computer, there is two - not one, hardware which could serve as memory - the RAM which attached to the motherboard (in my opinion, that's the brain, since life is short) and the Hard disk which stored all the data which processed through the user's interface with the computer. This data is stored permanently in the hard disk and unaffected even after the computer is turn off, while the information from the RAM is erased everytime the computer is turn off.

In such context :
Motherboard with RAM = human brain attached to its body.

Hard disk (separate entity from motherboard) = Soul/Mind

Electricity = Energy created by the body through food.

Heat Fan = Waste disposal system in humans.

"Seraphim, a few questions,
What, if any, functions does the soul/mind provide that the brain cannot? Conversely, is there anything that the brain can do that the mind cannot? "

My reply : In Buddhism and Hindusm, Mind-Body is ONE way symbiotic relationship. The body needs a mind since it is beneficial to have a questioning mind - questioning why this is like this and that (which supposed to be why humanity strive to this level of development in such a short time), the mind doesn't need the brain to strive since it is independant.

"If the soul can provide the functionality of consciousness and sentience after brain death, what is the purpose of the cerebral cortex? Sensory and motor duties could be handled by a much less complex brain. "
By Philosoft

My reply : If computer can stored information in longer and much safer condition than RAM could (where the information is erased when power stops flowing) then why don't the developers stop making RAMs?
The brain and cerebal cortex to me is like a RAM - limited use, as long as there is power.

"A person experiencing an NDE has no time reference during the NDE. No one, not outside observers, not the person having the NDE, can say that the actual NDE occurs at the same time that no brain functions are occuring. Thus, even if there were a case where someone claimed an NDE, and that person had been virtually brain-dead, we could not say with any certainty if the NDE had occurred prior to the brain-dead state or during."
By Jamie_L

My reply : Check my reply with two examples earlier (forgot the name of the person I replied to) and you will see that there are condition where a person is consider legally and medically death if death is defined by brain stop receiving oxygen.

excreationist

Seraphim:
I think 7 minutes is the time it takes for serious brain damage to occur if there is no oxygen going to the brain... so if someone has swallowed water for that long, it is highly likely that they have serious or even fatal brain damage. But if the body's temperature is lowered - e.g. they drowned in cold water - their brain cells can survive longer - sometimes people have been revived after they drowned almost an hour before.
Just because someone is "brain dead" it doesn't mean oxygen isn't getting to the brain... "brain dead" people on life support would probably have oxygen getting there but their brain just isn't responding.
Perhaps sometimes people's brains have stopped and they have been jump-started again... similar to a computer rebooting... I mean sometimes solid frozen animals can be revived...
If they had any NDE's they could have happened before or after their brain activity stopped... if it happened *during* the time their brain activity stopped that means that we can have thoughts without the brain... dreaming could be done while the brain is turned off, etc...

You could test if it happened during the time brain activity stopped by having some very expensive brain imaging equipment and in a faraway sound-proofed room you could have a person telling a story and recording that onto video. Then get the person to fly to that room during their OBE (out of body experience) if they have one and listen to the story and it could also be displayed on a screen, one line at a time.
When the person is revived, they could be asked what they remembered about the story. (The reason a story is involved is because we are much better at remembering stories than lists of objects, etc) They could work out if they really had an OBE and if it occurred while the person had no brain activity.

BTW, during operations, to test for "brain death" they'd probably do simple tests to see if the person reacts to their environment using simple reflexes. Proper brain scanning equipment wouldn't be used since it is so expensive. So all they know is whether their brain is reacting with the outside world or not... it still might be doing internal things like dreaming... but then I guess people have REM during dreams... I wonder if people have REM during NDE's...?

excreationist

I think a much better match for RAM in humans is short-term memory - also known as "working memory". The hard-disk would be our long-term memory. I think that long-term memories have to be put into our short-term memory to be analysed... this is similar to how computers need to copy data from the hard-disk to RAM to analyse the data.
Without a functioning computer, the data on the hard-drive is just static. It doesn't "do" anything on its own. Yet you claim that souls (hard-drives) can do things without the help of living brains (motherboards, power supply, etc).

Seraphim

By excreationist:

"... so if someone has swallowed water for that long, it is highly likely that they have serious or even fatal brain damage. But if the body's temperature is lowered - e.g. they drowned in cold water - their brain cells can survive longer - sometimes people have been revived after they drowned almost an hour before."

My reply : The difference between a Flatliner (term used by medical personals to describe people who is put in state of brain dead - mostly for hours during operations) and brain forced into dead-like state such as drowning is the environment itself. You yourself stated that brain could get damaged when people suffered in situation such as drowning, thus there should be some sort of difference between NDE and OBE faced by a Flatliner and a drowning victim, YET, both gives the same expression of tunnels etc. It is either the brain is not damage or that they did experience something unrelated to their brains.

"Just because someone is "brain dead" it doesn't mean oxygen isn't getting to the brain... "brain dead" people on life support would probably have oxygen getting there but their brain just isn't responding."

My reply : Possible but unproven. In Flatliner cases, they will strictly observer for any sign in the brain since such occurance could endanger the patient. And at the same time, if such activity such as dreaming does occur, they should have reported in those NDE.

"Perhaps sometimes people's brains have stopped and they have been jump-started again... similar to a computer rebooting... I mean sometimes solid frozen animals can be revived..."

My reply : logical. Brain dead simply means oxygen is not going in and powering up the cells, as long as the cells of the brain is not damaged, it should be logical to try and revive them.

"If they had any NDE's they could have happened before or after their brain activity stopped... if it happened *during* the time their brain activity stopped that means that we can have thoughts without the brain... dreaming could be done while the brain is turned off, etc..."

My reply : And WHAT does the dreaming if the brain activity has stopped functioning? That is like saying the computer could produce some signal when the power is off.

"You could test if it happened during the time brain activity stopped by having some very expensive brain imaging equipment and in a faraway sound-proofed room you could have a person telling a story and recording that onto video. Then get the person to fly to that room during their OBE (out of body experience) if they have one and listen to the story and it could also be displayed on a screen, one line at a time.
When the person is revived, they could be asked what they remembered about the story. (The reason a story is involved is because we are much better at remembering stories than lists of objects, etc) They could work out if they really had an OBE and if it occurred while the person had no brain activity."

My reply : Yes, true and it will prove a few things such as whether Soul exists. Right now, Flatliner cases (most commonly used method to induce Dead-like state) are the best bet we have. ALL evidence is pointing toward an non-brain related activity since the brain itself seems to be out of commision during this activities.

Autonemesis

duhh... ramble...


You know, sometimes... Never mind.

[ October 15, 2002: Message edited by: Kind Bud ]</p>

Seraphim

"I think you have cited the correct order in which one must proceed when trying to convince a skeptic (at least, this one). If there is no soul, the other questions about God and Heaven and Hell are moot."

My reply : True. Most religionist attempt to jump straight into explaining what is God without knowing what are we and where we stand, which is why they are stuck half way in explaining what is God.

"I have to ask what reason is there to doubt that when the brain and the body stop functioning, the mind and therefore the person, ceases to be? "

My reply : I don't understand the question. Are you asking why should you believe something such as a Mind/Soul exist when the body is cease to be alive?

Autonemesis

No and thanks, what I was trying to do was connect a sense of self to the mind and body, and was asking what of "me" survives if those two don't?

[ October 15, 2002: Message edited by: Kind Bud ]</p>