Freethought & Rationalism Archive

unregistered_user_1 · 06-13-2003, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
I see, of course - anything I post is completely wrong - but if comes from you guys - its automatically right. Just making sure I understand the double standard...

Here's a clue: TRY READING WHAT THE GUY POSTED! Note the Bolded words, please. It is NOT a matter of "automatically being wrong or right", it's about the authors themselves becoming more cautious...

Quote:

Both date to the Early Bronze Age, around 3300-2100 b.c.e. This dating places them far earlier than the traditionally accepted time period for when Abraham might have lived. At an earlier time, the archaeologists probably would have insisted that despite the chronological discrepancy, the sites were the Bible's Sodom and Gomorrah. In fact, in their report about the early work at the sites, Schaub and Rast had made just such an argument. Over the years they tempered their initial enthusiasm and became much more cautious about drawing conclusions.

. . . around 2350 B.C.E., the city came to a sudden and violent end. No one is certain what precipitated the community's demise � it could have been an earthquake, a military attack from outsiders, or some sort of natural disaster or plague. . . . There was nothing in the sites themselves that might conclusively link them to the biblical traditions, but Schaub points out that Bab edh-Dhra' and Numeira had not been inhabited again after they were destroyed. The ruins were right there on the surface. "People passing by could have seen it, the desolation would have been evident to all," says Schaub. He says it is not hard to imagine the kind of history the Bible's authors could infer from such dramatic wreckage. The valley must have seemed cursed by God. The tradition of Sodom and Gomorrah "probably does go back to some historical event," says Schaub. "But at this stage we will never know what it was."

Next time, try to make sure you get your facts straight before you start acting smug and supurior?

Jack the Bodiless · 06-13-2003, 05:12 AM

There WAS a total eclipse in the Middle East (though not quite total over Jerusalem) on 24th November 29AD.

I think it's very likely (in fact, rather obvious) that THIS was the source of the "darkness" story: moved by the storytellers (and exaggerated in length) to cover the crucifixion period.

What is the probability that this known total eclipse was an unrelated phenomenon? Pretty low, I'd say. Total eclipses aren't that common, especially in one specific locale.

I'd say that this is further evidence that the gospels were written well after the events they portray: long enough for people to forget about exactly when the eclipse had happened, allowing them to incorporate it into the story.

wade-w · 06-13-2003, 10:45 PM

Magus55:

Even if these two cities could be reasonably associated with Sodom and Gomorrah, what does that prove? Early archeologists used the Iliad to find Troy, and the Labyrinth has been found as well. Does that mean that zeus or the minotaur are real?

ScottDNV21 · 06-14-2003, 07:36 AM

In regard to Lady Shea's post about the association of bats with birds in Leviticus 11, I believe that the Hebrew word used for "bird" or "fowl" (depending on the translation) in this chapter is "owph", which can be used to describe not simply a bird in the taxonomical sense, but any creature that flies.

This is the same fallacy that is often made with regard to Jonah's "whale" or "fish". The word can be used to describe any sea creature.

That is the major problem with attempting to apply Linnaean taxonomical categorizations, which are recent inventions, to ancient Hebrew linguistics. The purpose of the biblical authors was to convey their message to their audience in a way that could be easily understood. And since the biological distinction between a bat (mammal) and a bird (non-mammal) was not properly understood at the time, such a distinction was obviously not included in the language. Therefore, linguistically, it would have been perfectly acceptable and accurate to use a common word for a bat and a bird.

I hope that helps...

Scotty D.

06-14-2003, 07:36 AM	#34
ScottDNV21 Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Reno, NV Posts: 9	In response to the original post... In regard to Lady Shea's post about the association of bats with birds in Leviticus 11, I believe that the Hebrew word used for "bird" or "fowl" (depending on the translation) in this chapter is "owph", which can be used to describe not simply a bird in the taxonomical sense, but any creature that flies. This is the same fallacy that is often made with regard to Jonah's "whale" or "fish". The word can be used to describe any sea creature. That is the major problem with attempting to apply Linnaean taxonomical categorizations, which are recent inventions, to ancient Hebrew linguistics. The purpose of the biblical authors was to convey their message to their audience in a way that could be easily understood. And since the biological distinction between a bat (mammal) and a bird (non-mammal) was not properly understood at the time, such a distinction was obviously not included in the language. Therefore, linguistically, it would have been perfectly acceptable and accurate to use a common word for a bat and a bird. I hope that helps... Scotty D.

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06-13-2003, 05:12 AM	#32
Jack the Bodiless Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: UK Posts: 5,815	There WAS a total eclipse in the Middle East (though not quite total over Jerusalem) on 24th November 29AD. I think it's very likely (in fact, rather obvious) that THIS was the source of the "darkness" story: moved by the storytellers (and exaggerated in length) to cover the crucifixion period. What is the probability that this known total eclipse was an unrelated phenomenon? Pretty low, I'd say. Total eclipses aren't that common, especially in one specific locale. I'd say that this is further evidence that the gospels were written well after the events they portray: long enough for people to forget about exactly when the eclipse had happened, allowing them to incorporate it into the story.

06-13-2003, 10:45 PM	#33
wade-w Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Silver City, New Mexico Posts: 1,872	Magus55: Even if these two cities could be reasonably associated with Sodom and Gomorrah, what does that prove? Early archeologists used the Iliad to find Troy, and the Labyrinth has been found as well. Does that mean that zeus or the minotaur are real?

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