Butters

Yea, sorry if the truth hurts.

Bede

Sojouner,

I am not trying to make any points, differentiate between catholics and protestants, minimise torture or anything else. Please re read my posts without your "catching Bede out" hat on. I asked why witch trials started and why they finished and that is all I am interested in.

I did not say the church objected to torture - simply that they didn't use it. However, I would be interested to see if there was any active opposition and will try to look this up. The rest of your post is attacking strawmen - certainly to make my statement of torture not being universal into some sort of argument that it didn't happen much when my same post says torture was widespread is total mis representation. And as I said, I wrote about England and Scotland because that is what I know about (being a Scot living in England). I am not hunting or pecking around anything.

Yours

Bede

Vesica

Posted by Butters:
How can I keep from getting sucked into witch hunting? How can I avoid becoming one of heavens gate faithfull?

You have brought up a serious issue. I would answer that you would need to be true to your personal beliefs. While it is true sometimes, I don't think Christianity or any religion requires brainwashing. I have never been asked to do or support anything I personally object to, nor have I felt pressured to 'follow the leader' or abandon personal reflection and accountability. I support the activities my church is involved in, but if I did not approve I would direct any contributions towards the programs I saw value in.

...but I will not accept people that want to fogrget about these events, or minimize them. The only way to avoid repeating history, is not to forget or deny it.

Nor should you! There is a difference between being mindful of the past and being a slave to it. I can not change or undo the evils done in the name of my God or religion, nor will any actions by me or the entire community of believers ever make amends; the past can not be forgiven. I seek only to live in such a way that does not contribute to the already dark past of Christianity.

By exposeing the evil wrought in this Gods name, you expose the fact that this is just another in a long line of religions that only benifit their leaders.

I don't follow the logic of this but there is a kernal of truth here. History is full of religions used to control and manipulate for the achievement of power and wealth. Yes Christianity is a big contributer here but that does not logically imply that no individual has ever benefited from the beliefs or from association with a sect.

In response to Amos:

I think I understand what you are getting at. There has been a dynamic tension in relgions that believe in an afterlife or great reward or triumph between the present world and the future they are anticipating. Personally I feel it is a great mistake to live in a future that may or may not come. If your thoughts are constantly in the 'to be', what then have you contributed to the now? Have you made any positive impact on your world, contributed anything meaningful and lasting? There is not easy solution to this because the problem lies not in religions but in the nature of humans or thier psychology that leads some to embrace various forms of escapism.

I have endevored to answer you both as fully and as honestly as possible. I have no pretensions of speaking for Christians as a whole or even for those of my denomonation. You have both brought up valid and intresting points...I wish there were more answers to give.

lugotorix

[quote]Originally posted by Vesica:
<strong>I'm afraid that Huh? is the only sane response to Amos' posts. They seem to hint that he is reading the same threads as the rest of us, but his responses follow some rules of logic that are definitely "not of this world". I wonder if he's related to Mark V. Shaney; they have the same rhetorical style.

lugotorix

ps: for those of you who may not have heard of Mr. Shaney, here's <a href="http://www.sincity.com/penn-n-teller/pcc/shaney.html" target="_blank">an article by Penn Jillette</a> about him.

lugotorix

That's okay. I've learned about it in self-defense, after hearing one too many well-meaning Neopagans refer to "all those women who were burned at the stake" in Salem.

lugotorix

Amos

You did well Vesica, thanks.

To get busy and prepare for the future would even be worse than just to live for the future. If the only sign given to us will be the sign of Jonah would that not mean that we should save the whales so God can give us this sign again? or maybe it is more important to restore Israel as a nation so Christ can come again. Our whale option would be cheaper would it not? Or maybe economics and loss of life do not count here. Maybe we must be bewitched to figure that one out.

Egoinos

An interesting, if rather strange quote I thought might be interesting:

Martin Luther, quoted in Jean Delumeau Catholicism between Luther and Voltaire: a new view of the Counter-Reformation (London: Burns & Oates, 1997) p171

--Egoinos--

Sojourner553

Hi Bede,

You’re right, I had missed this subtle line of yours:


One of the reasons I missed it was because the details of your post seemed to imply the Church was not a part of the whole episode of witch executions. That is you emphasize:

· Torture was conducted in secular courts
· It was primarily secular courts that tried witches
· Church courts, including the inquisition, rarely used torture.

But if the Church authorities passively accepted the torture, it would seem to me there is some culpability. Perhaps you will find some evidence that some Church leaders did argue against it.
I also think it was very misleading for you to state:

“... Kepler's mother was accused of witchcraft and not tortured so it was not universal.”

Why do I say this? She was threatened with witchcraft, and the evidence would suggest, without the extensive legal efforts of her famous son and a sympathetic duke, she would have been tortured (maybe executed like her aunt for witchcraft) as well.

Maybe there are some other examples to demonstrate your statement.

But on to the main thrust of the post: here are some reasons why I think witch trials began and ended when they did.


I think it follows this rough order:

* Beginning in the eleventh century, we see challenges to the Catholic Church’s religious authority, as individuals begin to first preach that (1) the Church was sinful and (2) one could find a direct relationship to God without benefit of Church clergy.

* Kings (and therefore secular courts) joined in with the Church to hunt down heretics. Afterall, the official Church religion taught that kings ruled by divine right, and therefore revolts against the King could be viewed as anti-God’s will.

* Torture became popular as a means of dealing with increased heresy. Whether in secular or religious courts was not the issue here, because of the cooperation (in mainland Europe anyway).
With Luther and Calvin and the resulting Catholic-Protestant wars, the tension increased even more. Both sides stepped up the rhetoric, preaching the other side was in league with the Devil.

*The Protestants (such as Luther and Calvin) read the Bible for themselves and liked to quote Exodus 22:18, which states, "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live". Calvin demanded, "that there are witches and that they must be slain...this law of God is a universal law."

*All this rhetoric gave the basis in most people’s minds that there were people out there ACTIVELY working with Satan. Emphasis on the biblical verses compounded this.
Now with torture prevalent, all kinds of fantastic confessions of working with demons were ALSO extracted.

(This in turn, fanned even more killings, torture – and with it belief in witches.


It seems to me the belief in witchcraft subsided when the fighting between Protestants and Catholics calmed down, and intellectuals began to extol rationality and tolerance as a means for resolving differences.

But then: Why do we see less witchcraft trials in England?
· Political heresy and torture were definitely present.
· We definitely see a conflict between Protestants and Catholics (such as Elisabeth and Mary Queen of Scots)

On the other hand:

· The first Protestants in England were Anglicans (which shared more of the Catholic liturgy and customs, therefore perhaps being less likely to hurl charges of Catholics being in league with the Devil.)

· After King Henry Viii’s ignomous divorce, perhaps there was less religious identification of the King with the Church. Again in England, one could torture and execute anyone held to be against the King/Queen – so why require it also to be against God (by being in league with the devil?)

· Later, religious authority was splintered among Protestants. In addition to the harsh Puritans, there were also Quakers and Unitarians by the late 1600’s – more progressive groups (among the Protestants anyway).

One possibility of testing for this: We know that in mainland Europe, Protestants (such as Calvin and Luther) accused Catholics of being agents of the Devil. Do we see Anglican authorities in England engage as strongly in these metaphors?


Sojourner

Sojourner553

When massacres occur there is generally an ideology that justifies this evil based on an idealized view of a society that can only be obtained by denying individual rights and freedoms.

Religion can be at the core of this ideology -- but this is not a requirement. Marxist Russian communism is an example of an atheistic ideology.

So what unifies theists? Belief in a divine power? After that, all similarities break down. In the East and West, there is not even agreement on the definition of divine power. That is, is it separate and distinct from the individual -- or a shared essence with the individual?

Likewise, what unifies atheists? If you felt all atheists had obtained their position through rational reasoning, then yes, I would be ashamed that rational behavior did not prevent them from doing evil.

It is the rational reasoning that I see as the common thread -- the assumption that all atheists came to their position through this route. It is obviously an oversimplification. For as noted above some atheists are really irrational thinkers, believe in undemocratic ideologies, etc. (Likewise, some theists can be great humanists and engage in rational thinking for much of their doctrines, just starting off with some different assumptions.)

I would think you would be sad to see any rational person (assuming that was the basis for them not believing in flying saucers) nevertheless choose to commit evil.

But not all ideologies (including forms of Christianity) are evil. It is only the fundamentalist Christians who interpret the verses you present in a LITERAL manner. Regarding fundamentalists, yes I think they have great potential to do evil -- often under the delusion this is really "good".

But again, did not the same apply to fundamentalist (atheist) Russian communists?

I am not a fundamentalist atheist. So I have nothing to apologize for. But I am sad that there are individuals who claim to use rationality in their lives to minimize superstition -- but still commit evil.

BTW: If Bede follows your logic in your flying saucer example, then he should also have nothing to apologize for. Just because there were some episodes in the Church's history where some Catholics misinterpreted verses and evil was committed -- this should have no significance to him today.

If course, you might reply: But we should see a higher standard of conduct in theist history if religion were indeed true? The texts (if divine)should not be ambiguous when interpretating them (like the verse you supplied that implied witches exist and therefore should be executed), etc, etc.

If you pose this question, I should sit out and let Bede respond.

Sojourner

Bible Humper

How do people this bewildered by the world function in day to day life?

If eggs seem to be missing from the nesting-boxes, and they don't know why, they figure a wizard must have teleported them away?

Ye gods! And this freak is the founder of Protestantism!

[ November 15, 2002: Message edited by: Bible Humper ]</p>