Freethought & Rationalism Archive

ex-preacher · 05-16-2002, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RJS:
With respect to the holocaust - I will copy what I have said already in this thread.

"I do believe that God has a will (which I do not have knowledge of) and he may choose to control things within our existence. He may choose to let others play out without direct intervention."

in other words, I cant answer your question.

Let me suggest that you think it about some more. Every night before you go to bed, spend a few minutes thinking about Anne Frank and the millions of other Jews who perished. Think about them going straight from the ovens of Hitler into the pits of hell. One warning: If you think about it long enough, you will leave Christianity.

MrDarwin · 05-16-2002, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RJS:
The "rules" were either yes or no answer. I choose no, and expect to have to do some explaining later. I'll start by saying that a perfect God wouldn't do something that had an unintended outcome. It would be intentional.

Yes, you will certainly have to do some explaining, especially when you start to think about the ramifications--consequences, as it were--of your answer.

When God created Satan, was Satan's rebellion an intended or unintended consequence?

When God created Man, was Man's weakness, fallibility, willfulness, and general imperfection an intended or unintended consequence?

When God put Satan and Man together on the same earth, and Satan tempts Man, or leads Man away from God, is that an intended or unintended consequence?

Finally, when humans--weak, willful, imperfect, fallible--reject God, is their eternal suffering an intended or unintended consequence?

[ May 16, 2002: Message edited by: MrDarwin ]

RJS · 05-16-2002, 01:18 PM

Quote:

But anyway. If you are going to claim that god gives us free will, only a few posts after you claim that we pay for our sins, I am lost, lost, lost. How do you claim that god gives us free will to do what we want, yet, if what we want isn't what he wants--than we're toast. Is that really free will to your best estimate?

You are aware of the potential ramifications of rejecting God (to the extent He exists), and it hasn't impaired your free will to totally reject Him, has it?

free12thinker · 05-16-2002, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RJS:


You are aware of the potential ramifications of rejecting God (to the extent He exists), and it hasn't impaired your free will to totally reject Him, has it?

You are once again asking me questions surrounding my rejection of god, without asking the question I raised. But I'll answer it for you, because I don't have to think too hard about my beliefs. I completely and wholeheartedly reject the notion of god, the mystery of god, the story of god blah blah blah.

Now, back to the question I asked. Do we really have free will--if that which we choose to do is going to send us on the short bus to hell?

St. Robert · 05-16-2002, 01:26 PM

Why do you guys focus so much on the wrath of God and so little on the grace of God?

RJS · 05-16-2002, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Yes, you will certainly have to do some explaining, especially when you start to think about the ramifications--consequences, as it were--of your answer.

When God created Satan, was Satan's rebellion an intended or unintended consequence?

When God created Man, was Man's weakness, fallibility, willfulness, and general imperfection an intended or unintended consequence?

When God put Satan and Man together on the same earth, and Satan tempts Man, or leads Man away from God, is that an intended or unintended consequence?

Finally, when humans--weak, willful, imperfect, fallible--reject God, is their eternal suffering an intended or unintended consequence?

[ May 16, 2002: Message edited by: MrDarwin ]

I would state that as God created a system with players that have a free will to choose to reject or accept Him, and that to the extent we rebel against Him either for part or all of our lives (you, me, Satan, man in general) the consequences of our actions were not unintended.

RJS · 05-16-2002, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Do we really have free will--if that which we choose to do is going to send us on the short bus to hell?

We can freely choose to accept or reject God - You have chosen to live eternally without Him and I have chosen to live eternally with Him. Free will at its finest. You are implying to the extent you believed in Hell, you would accept God, right?

I'll add one more point - to me, the genius in creating this universe where the existence or non-existence of God can't be proven, and is left up to each individual to decide and "believe" (or not believe) is awe inspiring in and of itself. And yes, I realize that you can never prove the non-existence of something.

[ May 16, 2002: Message edited by: RJS ]

sidewinder · 05-16-2002, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RJS:


We can freely choose to accept or reject God - You have chosen to live eternally without Him and I have chosen to live eternally with Him. Free will at its finest. You are implying to the extent you believed in Hell, you would accept God, right?

Hey RJS...are you absolutely certain that Christianity is the one and only true religion of the God of the universe? Have you fully investigated the claims of Islam to make sure you're a member of the correct religion? Wouldn't it suck if you wasted your whole life living as a Christian and then you wind up in Muslim hell?

St. Robert · 05-16-2002, 01:49 PM

Why do you guys focus so much attention on the wrath of God and so little, if at all, on the mercy and grace of God?

[ May 16, 2002: Message edited by: St. Robert ]

RJS · 05-16-2002, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Hey RJS...are you absolutely certain that Christianity is the one and only true religion of the God of the universe? Have you fully investigated the claims of Islam to make sure you're a member of the correct religion? Wouldn't it suck if you wasted your whole life living as a Christian and then you wind up in Muslim hell?

Fully? probably not. General Understanding? Yes. Enough to place my bet on Jesus, absolutely! If I'm wrong, I'll see you in Muslim hell, okay?

05-16-2002, 01:49 PM	#139
St. Robert Regular Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: North Carolina Posts: 170	Why do you guys focus so much attention on the wrath of God and so little, if at all, on the mercy and grace of God? [ May 16, 2002: Message edited by: St. Robert ]</p>

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05-16-2002, 01:26 PM	#135
St. Robert Regular Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: North Carolina Posts: 170	Why do you guys focus so much on the wrath of God and so little on the grace of God?

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